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Comic Industry Collapse Watch Thread Anonymous 04/26/2020 (Sun) 19:32:45 No. 179
>Corona-chan is fucking over the world economy >Now years of shit stories, forced agendas and awful sales have lead to the collapse of the industry >Diamond going bust >Shops going bust >The mouse planning to kill Marvel What a wonderful time to be alive.
>>179 I only hope after the big two fucking die, more French comics would be translated and imported
>>180 I wonder where that Anon who translated about French Chefs (I think it was called Burger.) went. Id kill to read it again.
>>181 *the comic about French chefs-
>>181 the 4chapters (it only got 4 before Barbucci and Arleston went to Ekho ) are up on https://readcomiconline(.)to dunno if teh place is safe, but its all there
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>>189 Someone should bring it over here and storytime.....for safety reasons. >teh
>>192 >Checks my Grammar and Orthography Hey anon, nobdy is ferpect, ok?
>>179 It's absolutely fantastic. Marvel & DC are getting exactly what they deserve. With the rest of the comic industry that survives this finally realizing they need to evolve past the ways of old. Create actual stories with permanence & continuity. Stop or at least limit guest artists. Focus more on graphic novel/volume production over issues. We live in an age on the cusp of a new era.
>>201 >least limit guest artists. I do like my exclusive cover art.
>>261 Cover art is fine but when there's a dramatic shift in style to the point nothing is consistent in style or material then there's a problem. Like how in Red Hood's New 52 run, Jason's helmet & how it worked never stayed consistent.
>>263 I get ya but sometimes a shift in art could be a good thing if what was there previously wasn't any good or it was an artistic choice.
>>266 If it serves the story then a change of pace with the art can be fine. Just needs to have a sense of consistency with character designs & layouts. Pretty basic quality things that Marvel & DC don't bother to do.
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>>201 >Stop or at least limit guest artists. Rotating artists is unavoidable given how hard drawing 20 or so pages under tight deadlines for months can be. Tethering artists to books longer than they like is a good way to ensure shitty work from them. >Focus more on graphic novel/volume production over issues This is one of those things that sounds smart from a consumer's point of view, but it's actually pretty ignorant of the logistics involved. Straight trades are risky because of the expense associated with publishing a $20-40 book that needs to sell like hotcakes fast to make back the money spent printing and distributing it. If anything, a switch to trades would just force publishers to double down on their worst habits (more low-effort gimmicky shit, character/genre variety is dead, fuck royalties, etc.) >Create actual stories with permanence & continuity I think that boat sailed decades ago. Anybody looking for permanence and continuity in Big Two superhero comics is looking in the wrong fucking place.
>>305 I'm not saying apply this to the big two. They're done for. I'm saying these are the kinds of things that need to be applied to a new era of the industry. If it's even possible for the new industry to exist.
>>303 > Marvel & DC don't bother to do. I guess it cheaper hiring amateurs hiding behind "mai style" than someone decent. >>318 >a new era of the industry Maybe it'll be more creator driven, with everything shifting towards online, the middle man is practically cut out.
>>321 I doubt physical books will be phased out. Though there are long time running web comics, it's about as profitable as digital versions of physical comics. Being not profitable at all. But something that reflects the normal process of book publishing as a whole can succeed after the old ways are destroyed.
>>365 Either they find a way to start selling floppies again on newspaper stands or they better increase the quality of them because the usual 22 something colored book is not going to cut it post corona.
>>366 Companies need to publish paperback volumes like you would a normal book. One volume at a time with an easy to follow numbering system. It shouldn't be so outlandish for graphic novels to not follow the mold that's kept books alive.
>>377 >paperback volumes They tried with Walmart, it didn't last.
>>378 Those were hardcovers. Then there's also the fact they were at WALMART of all things. Normalfags never cared about comics. They need to sell them in a market with avid readers. Not in Walmart hoping some ghetto kids want them.
>>379 They should've put them in the toy section, every time I saw a book they were always next to the trading cards.
>>386 Probably because the trading cards are up front where you pay so their logic was kids would see em better.
>>425 I mean if that's your strategy why not place them near the cashier along with the magazines?
>>428 Iunno
>>429 >>428 Its probably Archie and the company that owns Garfield making it difficult. They're the only ones near the cashier.
>>430 Many worldly problems can be traced back to Garfield.
>>432 That fucking obese cat has become too powerful.
>>434 He has hated mondays for millions of years.
>>443 >He has hated mondays for millions of years. >millions of years.
>>444 At the end of all things, there is Garfield. https://youtu.be/ag7taInIKSc
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>>179 I hope the Mouse does it. I want to see the Big Two go down in flames. I want to see them fall for all the shit they've pulled.
>>305 >Rotating artists is unavoidable given how hard drawing 20 or so pages under tight deadlines for months can be. Tethering artists to books longer than they like is a good way to ensure shitty work from them. Maybe they can do what the manga industry has been pulling and just do colorless issues every two weeks or so, then release a colorized version later. And make sure it all stays under one author and their specific universe.
>>694 The probable will always be the middle man, manga owns their own distribution networks. Comics mostly rely on diamond and similar monopolies
>>700 problem*
Obviously the problems with comics aren't new. They just made the industry weak enough that it was the only industry that corona could completely kill. If they still limp along with enough strength to enact changes (since obviously they cannot survive any longer with the current ways) then I guess I'll list the things that are obviously necessary/ >Stop hiring based on things other than sales. This shouldn't need to be said, but here we are. If you don't prioritize sales and customers, you won't get any money and will go out of business. Hiring SJWs that actively hate the audience, and the material they are hired to create, will only make you lose money. >Prioritize more long term strategies A million gimmicks like mass crossovers and variant covers and such keeps away normal customers and makes the industry based on whales. Not only have those whales been literally dying off for years, but whales are also surprisingly fickle. When they quit, they quit, and suddenly a store loses hundreds or thousands of dollars a month. Because eventually even the whale can't keep up with the 150 $4 issues required to keep up with the latest crossover. >less crossovers in general Related to the last one, but I shouldn't need to read 10 different issues per month just to keep up with the latest Batman storyline. >less series per company, one title per character There's like ten series all about Batman. Not even counting all the different teams he's on, and all the books about his sidekicks. Superman is close behind, along with Spider-Man and a few others. Cut that shit out. I get that Action Comics and Detective Comics aren't gonna be cancelled, but maybe try to transition them to being about side characters. Robin, Batgirl, and Nightwing can be rotating stars of Detective Comics. Or a team of them. No side characters less important than them should have their own series. Robin, a character that everyone's grandmother has known for like 75 years never got his own series until the '90s. There shouldn't be like four Justice Leagues and Avengers teams. It should be enough that there's already Justice Society, Justice League, Titans, and Young Justice. If you're gonna do JLI, at least make it "Super Buddies" or something else so it's more distinct. Either Justice League OR JLA OR JLI. The major characters that everyone and their mother knows can have solo series. The few major teams that aren't just Justice League/Avengers variants. Then a couple spots left for more experimental books. 25-30 series per month is maybe still too much, but it's so much less than what they've been doing for years. >More emphasis on GNs I know people have been saying that isn't practical logistically. But I think it would be more practical if they didn't put out so many bad ideas for series. Put out like one GN per series every six months. For ongoing series. Market them more like sequels. DC had a great idea with that "Earth-One" thing, but they fucked it up with a bad release schedule and then basically making it redundant with New 52. Take everything I said about floppies in the last entry, but release them as whole books every six months instead. This would also remove the problems with too many crossovers, and would make reading orders much easier. Since they'd know the release date of each GN (and could do like one per week, if they insisted on similar output as before. 52/year) it would be easy to design them to be read in release order, if they do ever cross over. >fuck the direct market This is obviously the biggest one. Stop doing things half assed with Wal-Mart or whatever. See what Archie does? Do that shit. Or just fucking do what they did before the direct market took over in the '80s. It worked for decades. That said, the death of magazines is always going to take comics down eventually too. So this is only a temporary measure. >better digital distribution I much prefer physical, if I can help it. But this would be mitigated greatly if they just had good digital distribution. Just make a netflix-like subscription with EVERY COMIC IN THE COMPANY'S CATALOG. Every time I've checked, they're missing tons of random issues for some reason. As if Marvel doesn't have the rights to every issue of Spider-Man. I should be able to log on and see literally every Marvel comic ever, if I subscribe to their service. I should be able to sit down and read every issue of Spider-Man in order. Paying for individual digital comics is retarded, the same as paying for individual digital episodes of TV shows. Give me a subscription for access to all the comics you ever made, and more people might pay it. And Marvel and DC both have more comics than anyone could realistically read in a lifetime, so it's not like people will only pay for one month and consume it all. If they're worried this will cannibalize sales of new material, then fine, the online thing can be like a year behind the new physical stuff. Even further back, maybe. But at a certain point it becomes hard to get stuff, once it gets old enough. That's when online is particularly useful. I know I'm ignoring indies, and it wouldn't be as easy for them. Maybe there can be a similar service that indies can sign up for together, and it would give users access to the catalogs of Image + IDW + Dark Horse, etc. I don't think Marvel or DC would go in for a team up thing, and they're big enough to not need to, but the smaller companies might. >black and white? Someone mentioned this above. Maybe. I don't think colorists are one of the biggest costs though. And they're different people than pencillers and inkers, so they don't add to the time too much. They're coloring while everyone else is on to making the next issue. But it might lower cost, and personally, I love the Showcase/Essential black and white collections, because they're cheaper. But I do think a lot of people are easily wowed by color, even if it's not particularly good. >lower cost in general $4 for like 20 pages. Bullshit. Kids can't afford that. Frankly, you need to be a fairly well off adult in order to actually keep up with the storylines. And the rare time there is a one-off issue, it's way too short to be worth that much money. They wouldn't have to charge so much if they could sell enough to work with economies of scale, but they will never sell more if they keep their price so high. Whales are not good long term source of income.
>>715 >less crossovers Would it be wrong to suggest to keep different series in their own universes? I mean quite frankly having Batman co-exist in the same world as Superman works when its campy, but for serious tales their worlds should be separate to make Batman's threats more feasible. And with so many superheroes and villains running around in just one world, what's stopping Flash or Superman from just suckerpunching the Joker when he's about to blow up Gotham? And then you have garbage like Marvel try to enforce these universal entities that try and make a certain character the lynchpin of the Universe, like Spiderman and that gay Webweaver of Fate shit. That only works if the universe is centered around Spiderman, but then you have conflicting accounts with other characters claiming they're connected to the center. Especially with X-Men's never ending stream of bullshit. I say all this but frankly I just want the Big Two to die.
>>718 Personally, I love the shared universe aspects of these universes. Especially DC, since it's even more autistic. I love Justice League and all the Crises. I love the way the actual universe itself evolves. And as for the lynchpin of the universe, I think that's one of the things that makes Superman so interesting. Batman too, to a lesser degree. As for why Superman doesn't fight Flash guys or whatever, it's because they're all busy all the fucking time, and they trust each other to deal with certain things, and understand the other heroes are busy, so they try to do things without bothering others unless they really need that help. The JLA Communicator is not a toy. All that said, as much as I actually like crossovers and a tight shared universe, it just becomes impractical to cross over as much as they do. As I mentioned, it becomes logistically difficult to follow a storyline when you need to read ten different series in a month just to follow a single story. It also becomes absurdly expensive. And since each of these series are separate series, and practically all series do nothing but gigantic multi-year stories now, you can't just read the crossover issues and understand. You need to read years worth of back issues for each series involved in the crossover to understand. I really do think the future will be with GNs + strong online distribution. Floppies aren't sustainable. But let's say there were 52 GNs per year. One per week. Maybe slightly less for holiday weeks or something. (52 series is way too much, but fine, put out two Batman GNs a year. The big sellers get two per year) Then, if crossovers do happen, it would be easy to organize things so you just read in release order. Maybe some plot points from the Nightwing GN get picked up in the Batgirl GN that comes out a few weeks later (or even the very next week, if they're going to be as predatory as possible and keep you coming back every week), but at least it would be easy to follow by just going by release date. In order to try to catch up in the last few years, I've had to resort to piracy because it's just impractical to buy it all, and I need a site called Comic Book Reading Orders to help me figure out the damn orders. And they're not even close to release order. It makes reading floppies monthly too confusing when Superman and Spider-Man have like three adventures coming out at the same time, and then you just need to figure out which ones happened first. And it makes the storytelling worse since they can't reference each other since they don't know what order they actually happen in.
>>181 He (or someone else willing to translate) was around as late as mid 2019, when an idea of translating another comic was being thrown around in Eurocomics, Lastman, or some other thread. All French books I am interested in were officially or unofficially translated at that point and no one else had any ideas either. Les Indes Fourbes was finally released in late August, but I am not sure how feasible translating that would be. Given Blacksad's success an Delcourt's translation efforts, it is inevitable that the book will get an official translation eventually. It is also longer and more expensive than Lord of Burger, which makes the project more challenging.
>>305 >This is one of those things that sounds smart from a consumer's point of view, but it's actually pretty ignorant of the logistics involved. Straight trades are risky because of the expense associated with publishing a $20-40 book that needs to sell like hotcakes fast to make back the money spent printing and distributing it. If anything, a switch to trades would just force publishers to double down on their worst habits (more low-effort gimmicky shit, character/genre variety is dead, fuck royalties, etc.) And yet it works in France and the rest of Europe. In fact, 'straight to trade' is the default format in most European countries. Granted, one tome tends to be 50 to 100 pages long and released every one to two years on average, but the quality is superior compared to American comics and it feels like you get your money's worth. Quality over quantity. Not sure if any American publisher would be happy without steady monthly revenue, but instead be forced to operate more like book publishers.
>>729 What about going the other way completely like Japan? Cheap monthly/bi-weekly bundles of stories. Worth the money on page count, but with several shorts that can be cut if they underperform. Has that even been tried in either US or Europe?
>>730 That used to be the norm. Anthology series. But by the '60s they all got taken over by one series each, that took over the whole book. Action Comics didn't begin as nothing but Superman, but it became that eventually. Marvel straight up changed the names of series, as Thor completely took over Journey Into Mystery, and Hulk took over Tales to Astonish. Those books all used to have many more pages per issue, too. Which makes sense since they'd need more pages to tell so many stories. For reference, Marvel's Masterworks collections for Silver Age comics have 12 issues on average. Their Golden Age Masterworks, which are the same length, but mostly anthology series, are only 4 issues each. They shortened the lengths of pretty much all comics over time as an alternative to raising prices. So series that used to be about 80 pages each are now about 20 pages each. Then they raised prices anyway once they became too short to shorten them any further. The switch to the direct market also encouraged catering to "hardcore" fans and "collectors," meaning higher quality paper and the death of black and white books (though the ones I've mentioned so far were all color since the start). So that also raised the price. This lead them to completely abandon trying to work with economies of scale, and instead raise the price further to try to squeeze out extra money from the people who didn't already leave due to the high prices. But this encourages more to leave, which, with the industry's backwards logic, encourages them to raise prices higher. How long is an issue of Shonen Jump or whatever? I agree that it would make sense for comic companies to do the same thing. They can put out the same stories. Print them on shitty paper in black and white. Group similar ones together. There are like ten books each for the Bat-Family, Superman-Family, Green Lanterns, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc. Just group them into one black and white publication per month, and make it a more affordable price. You can even trick people into buying Batgirl or whatever even though they only want Batman, but at least it's related, so they probably will tolerate it. Less normalfag books can just be grouped by target audience or genre or whatever, and since it's not as normalfag, the target audience might go for that. The trick is getting the retards in charge of the comic industry to realize that selling more material for a lower price can actually increase their profits. They think too short term to realize that. It's all moot if they don't sell at places that people actually go, anyway. And since comics have been out of the public eye for so long that most people think they stopped publishing them decades ago, you'd need a robust marketing campaign that Disney and Warner would probably never want to pay for, even though they can easily cross-promote with the movies and other adaptations.
So the comic industry is going to be replaced by SoL tween graphic novels and masterpieces like Dogman and Captain Underpants after the Big 2 die? I want to see more webcomics succeed to light a fire under these corporate bigwigs' asses. Loathe the infinite scrolling format however.
>>735 Those industries already exist. I wouldn't even call them competitors. The big 2 and all the indie companies decided to kill themselves all at the same time. So the industry is gone. You can still try to publish OGNs through other publishers, but the rest of the publishing industry has been even more cucked for an even longer time. Indiegogo is basically your only hope now.
>>179 The Mouse planning to kill Marvel is wonderful news. I can't wait to see Marvel die, If only Stan Lee had lived another 2 years to be able to see his life's work go down in flames but what about DC? How will they collapse? Haven't heard anything about them? Are they doing that badly?
>>739 The comics division is dead but studios will live on.
>>771 >studios will live Fuck I hope not.
>>785 Its the only thing making them money.
>>739 >what about DC? How will they collapse? Haven't heard anything about them? Are they doing that badly? I keep hearing that DC's upcoming reboot after DC Rebirth, 5G, is their last chance to prove to Warner their comics are still worth keeping around.
>>804 5G is an impending disaster, imagine all the woke shit from the last 4 years compressed into one gigantic reboot.
>>730 This is done in Europe too, but to a lesser degree in most countries. In fact, this is the go-to method to get the most recent American comics if you do not want to wait for translated tpbs. Depending on a country, there will usually be magazines printing three to six Marvel or DC stories. Another alternative I have seen were three issues of specific series collected into a single floppy-like volume. >>771 Until they stop being profitable. Sooner or later capeshit movie fad will end, just like western, action movie, romantic comedy, and edgy teen sex comedy ones did.
>>807 I vaguely recall at one point comics used to be sold in phonebook sized volumes.
>>805 So what, they're getting rid of White Wally again? Or are we talking new shit like gay nigger Batman?
>>820 All of the above, also don't forget ape wonderwoman too.
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>dozen IDW employees were let go permanently by the publisher and broadcaster last week. >Names mentioned by sources so far include Associate Publisher David Hedgecock, Managing Editor Denton Tipton, Senior Graphic Artist Gilberto Lazcano, Senior Graphic Designer Christa Meisner, and Brand & Marketing Manager Spencer Reeve. > IDW made the difficult decision to furlough several valued staff members, and two weeks ago, IDW welcomed several of those staffers back full-time. However, as we continue to adapt and deal with these challenging times, we have been forced to lay-off some of our longtime co-workers and friends. Looks like the dominoes are beginning to fall. https://archive.is/WRm0R
>>731 >The trick is getting the retards in charge of the comic industry to realize that selling more material for a lower price can actually increase their profits. They think too short term to realize that. Didn't they have that mail order business model back in the 90's that was making them money hand over fist, but stopped it because the distributors were bitching about how they were losing money?
>>807 >Sooner or later capeshit movie fad will end, just like western, action movie, romantic comedy, and edgy teen sex comedy ones did. Cocerning this, do you believe that Disney and WB would consider heavily downsizing or dissolving their comic companies when the time comes for the movie fad to end. They would still own the IP, and their heroes are well known through motion picture and cartoon media more than the comics. How long would they be willing to keep throwing money into the comic book industry?
>>807 >Until they stop being profitable. Sooner or later capeshit movie fad will end, just like western, action movie, romantic comedy, and edgy teen sex comedy ones did. The capeshit fad has been going for 20 years now, though. I do think if it's going to fail, it's now, after Endgame made normalfags feel like they saw the end of the story, and Marvel seems to be deciding they want to go broke by going full SJW, but if anything, things would just go back to how they were in the mid-2000s, where there were still a ton of superhero movies, just not the ridiculous amount there have been the last couple years.
>>1306 Yes. And the idea of digital comics has been around since late 90s, but both Marvel and DC shut it down when approached about it. I don't remember who was proposing it, and I can't find the links to the story. >>1344 WB is in better standing, as DC has far more evergreen titles that make consistent numbers for decades after their publications. DC would keep going, at the very least just so they can retain Watchmen rights. Marvel, who knows. Disney is hemorrhaging money, their comic books revenue is more floppy-reliant than DCs, and movies are effectively subsidizing every other Marvel arm at this point. When films will be losing money, Marvel might go into reprints with half a dozen titles for the most popular properties, or they could even outsource comic production to someone else. Marvel even has a history of doing that back in the 90s. >>1353 >The capeshit fad has been going for 20 years now Age of westerns lasted anywhere from 20 to 40 years depending on who you ask. Romantic comedies for 20 to 30 years. There is no set timer on a fad. Of course, they won't stop making films overnight. Instead they will just cut down gradually year by year. Eventually, some will get released every few years, just like westerns and romantic comedies do now. In addition to the endgame and Downey Junior and Evans quitting, Marvel also has to deal with growing animosity towards China. Trade wars and possible boycotts might cut into Marvel's finances, especially since Disney is already borrowing cash like crazy and lost 30% of its value so far. Only park open is the Shanghai one and it is operating at 25% of its capacity. Black Widow got pushed back to fall, but if fall virus wave will happen and theaters will close again, the film will be fucked.
>>1371 Wait, romantic comedies were a fad? When did they start and end? I didn't even notice. I thought it was just a cheap genre of movie to produce, and you could always count on enough women going to it to make back your modest budget. I thought it was just a type of lower budget film studios put out between blockbusters. Digital comics are only fucked because the publishers don't want to anger the rest of the industry, which they would be cutting out. Or at least, they'd be cutting into them a little bit. I think people still want physical books, but sacrificing digital just to appease people who sell physical is stupid. Surely DC and Marvel aren't stupid enough to think anyone would ever want a digital comic that sells at the same price as a physical comic, but they sell them at physical prices to appease stores and others who make money off of physical. And then since they never want to actually take that market seriously, they never do things that would be necessary, like making an actual good subscription service.
so it's finally happening huh? why did it have to be like this? i get that sales were dropping before they went full sjw and they had to do something to break that trend. but did they really not have any better ideas than to completely shit on their fans and legacy? literally anything they could have tried would have been better than what they did. oh well, GET WOKE GO BROKE NIGGERS
>>1489 Diversity and Comics made an interesting point that makes this even more depressing. With so many characters basically becoming fascist villains, like say The X-Men, and the series ending in the midst of that, it essentially reframes these entire series not as a hero's journey, but as the rise of villains. The X-Men are villains, and now, they will be villains forever.
>>1493 >With so many characters basically becoming fascist villains, like say The X-Men, and the series ending in the midst of that, it essentially reframes these entire series not as a hero's journey, but as the rise of villains. The X-Men are villains, and now, they will be villains forever. Isn't the irony of it all that the X-Men were trying to prevent Magneto from doing just that? >but as the rise of villains Also, isn't this rather scary reveal? Where, after decades of the "good guys" trying to do the right thing, with some series/arcs being completely about the good guys preventing themselves from crossing that line, you have all the young kids who (Who their mentors pounded into their head that they have to "be better") show up and don't give a shit about where the line is because "we're 'good' no matter" and then proceed to do and become EVERYTHING that their mentors were fighting and stood against?
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>>1489 Honestly, getting woke wasn't the real killer here. It was the industry not having a backup plan for corona-chan. >>1494 >With so many characters basically becoming fascist villains, like say The X-Men They are? I thought the X-men were an orgy cult on an island thanks to Hickman's mini-reboot.
>>1505 > getting woke wasn't the real killer here Its like cancer it kills over time and if you get another bad disease at the same time you're practically dead meat.
>>180 They'd censor the lewd lolis.
>>1489 Apparently, though it'll be another month before anything major happens again. Disney needs to recount its eggs first before smashing a few of them.
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>DC Cancels Over 20 Comics From Their Upcoming Schedule https://archive.is/t7Zzb#selection-1001.0-1001.54 >No reason has been given for the cancellations, but it seems most likely that these releases were deemed non-essential for the current marketplace.
>>1579 The facsimilies being canceled is a bit odd. Those apparently sell decent and require minimal cost/effort.
>>1580 I guess it doesn't cut it during the pandemic.
>>1505 >They are? I thought the X-men were an orgy cult on an island thanks to Hickman's mini-reboot. A fascist orgy cult on an island. For example, they tried to kidnap Franklin Richards because he's a mutant and his parents are just filthy normies. The X-Men have basically been on Magneto's side for like a decade now. And now the industry collapse makes it very likely that the series will end forever before some sane person gets a chance to redeem them and make them heroes again. And it's happened to so many other characters as well, particularly at Marvel.
>>1596 >before some sane person gets a chance to redeem them and make them heroes again It doesn't matter. It never mattered. When anything any writer does can be rewritten, retconned, ignored, or just ignored. This is the basic problem of the comic book industry. A lack of story telling structure. With no structure there is no permanence. Nothing matters.
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Now comic shops not only have to deal with the pandemic but looters too. https://archive.is/clqFN
>>1606 I bet none of the funko pops are even touch.
I stop supporting these brands. DC and Marvel are going full Antifa.
>>1609 I wouldn't be surprised if some shops use the looting as an excuse to get rid of their pops, and other crap. >>1606 It's sad to see some shops close, but the entire industry is way too pozzed to survive.
>>1597 It's not the destination, it's the journey. That is until you get to the destination and it turns out to be a bad end after 80 years of buildup. But no, your actual meaning here is retarded. The existence of sequels doesn't make previous works bad. The Empire Strikes back isn't bad just because of other movies Disney made decades later. It's sad what happened to the X-Men and many others, but the current bullshit, even if it's truly the end, doesn't actually make Claremont's run bad. It's sad to see what happened, but you can just ignore it and focus on the good stories there were.
>>1619 No that's stupid. A system like this is completely backwards. Big two comics should operate like creator controlled works where runs don't intersect. You can pick something up from start to finish with ease & never feel obligated to keep reading because that story version of the character is done. Going on forever with anyone & everyone writing & rewriting characters or their histories is retarded.
>>1621 There are advantages to the extremely long and interconnected continuities that have developed over the decades, though. A lot of great stories rely on exploiting those histories that could never happen in a series of more purely self-contained works. Even in subtle ways, the relationships that have built up between characters who would otherwise be unrelated adds a depth when they do cross over. Yeah, sometimes there are shitty stories. Just don't read those. The status quo being god isn't a bug. It's a feature. Those shitty stories have tended to become minimized over time. Sometimes they even get used as the springboard for good stories, and concepts that were initially bad can be redeemed. See Booster Gold. Not to say he was a bad character originally, he was okay. But by being put on the JLI, he was able to form interesting relationships with other characters, including Blue Beetle, who was originally from a whole other universe and has his own very complex history. But they made a great team and we got lots of good stories out of it, first as they were both retooled into comedy characters, while still keeping their histories intact, and then again when Booster was retooled again into a much more serious character, with his history as a comedy character being integral to what made that work. All this said, I agree that for decades now, the amount of crossover has just been absurd, and it makes it impractical to keep up with the stories. There's a balance that must be met here. And of course self-contained works aren't bad. As you mentioned, they certainly have advantages, but a shared universe with a long history opens up possibilities. And even within complex continuities like that, you can still have relatively self-contained stories. Maybe if the industry survived longer, and society survives the SJW menace, we could even see the current crop of awful stories be minimized or even redeemed. Maybe Carol Danvers realizes she went mad with power and sets herself on a path to redemption. Maybe the X-Men finally realize they became The Brotherhood, and actually face ramifications from that. Maybe The (new) Champions realize they were a bunch of selfish, egotistical pricks, who lost sight of any heroism they originally had in mind, and try to actually earn the respect they originally just demanded. Given time, and a society that regains its sanity, these things would have been possible. That's not to say I'm very hopeful anymore, however.
>>1632 If a company wants to do a shared universe with connected stories then it needs to do what I've been saying. Have a structure. Have writers communicate with each other. Keep designs consistent regardless of art style. Have a set in stone personality for each character to avoid mischaracterization. Let characters actually progress instead of stagnant by repeating the same sorts of stories & lessons forever. It's so simple but can't be done under DC or Marvel's current systems.
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DC Cuts Ties With Diamond Comic Distributors >In a seismic shift for the comic book industry, DC has cut ties with Diamond Comic Distributors. >Moving forward, comic book retailers can obtain their DC books from Penguin Random House, or their books and periodicals through Lunar or UCS comic book distributors >DC parting ways with Diamond means that the latter loses the second-biggest publisher in the North American market, responsible for roughly 30 percent of the entire market in 2019. It’s a significant blow to the distribution company as it re-opens after two months, especially with publishers across the board significantly pulling back on releases in the wake of coronavirus closures and furloughs of their own. Looks like people are starting to jump ship. https://archive.is/kfbpl
>>1633 I'd say they both did a good job of that for a long time though. It's just in recent years, when people who openly hate the genre and series that they took over got a hold of things that those aspects really went to hell. Before, the problem wasn't lack of consistency, it was, if anything, just too many damn crossovers, making you need to read too much to understand what's going on. But they had a good balance going in the '70s and '80s. Arguably into the '90s as well. >>1635 Nowhere to go but up. Even if it's the full on death of the industry, that's still up.
>>1635 It can't get much worse than before under Diamond. Right? >>1648 Too many damn crossovers is still an issue today. It's just lack of consistency has made that problem all the worse. I think the most realistic plan to fix comic structure is to release less books at a time with more quality focus over quantity. It's not a fix really but more of a good treatment to get the ball rolling again. I also think in the case of DC, they need to completely scrap their 5G plan to instead make a clean slate without any decades worth of continuity. Do something completely fresh instead of haphazardly trying to piece things together into a quilt of nonsense.
>>1655 >Too many damn crossovers is still an issue today. I never tried to claim it wasn't. It's just been getting worse and worse since the late '80s. >I also think in the case of DC, they need to completely scrap their 5G plan to instead make a clean slate without any decades worth of continuity. Do something completely fresh instead of haphazardly trying to piece things together into a quilt of nonsense. I disagree. The deep universe and history, and the character relationships that have sprung from that, are what make me love the DCU. However, I do think they need to just chill it with the crossovers and references. You can have the continuity exist without making it so integral to every story that you can't understand the basics of a story without knowing it. Again, there was tight continuity and a good amount of crossovers in the '70s and '80s, yet it was always easy to understand. There was always continuity, but when issues were almost always standalone, like until the late '60s or early '70s, this was never an issue. Superman could refer to the Bottle City of Kandor that he brought back from Brainiac's ship in a previous issue, but it wasn't confusing. Honestly, it's just an issue of writing style. Go read the Crisis on Infinite Earths. It's literally the end of a 50 year story, a crossover of everything that had ever happened, and yet it's actually still very easy to understand for a new reader. The only thing that might really make the reader feel like they should have read a previous story is the references to the end of The Flash, but otherwise, all the other references just give new readers an idea of things that might be cool to read. It never makes the story they are currently reading difficult to understand. It never feels like they aren't getting the full story. Hell, there are a million tie in issues, but nobody today is reading them when they read the series, and I don't think anyone reading the series would feel like the series is harmed by that. Though if you do go to read those tie in issues, a lot of them are actually pretty good. DC's problem since the '80s has been trying to change their continuity to appeal to people who think it's too confusing. It doesn't work. It's always just more confusing. Because you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't do a full reboot and then still tell stories with Nightwing or any of the later Robins, because the entire thing that makes them work is their history. So they try to reboot parts and not other parts, and for a long time reader, it's easy to understand that it's actually not a reboot at all. Everything is still canon, except for the things that are explicitly contradicted. Fine. I get that. But it's not exactly less confusing than just saying "it's all canon," is it? Do you really want to have them erase Wally West again? It didn't work last time. People love that character, and he doesn't work without tons of history. See DCAU Wally, who doesn't have that history, but the result is that he's a completely different character in all but name. And by the way, Wally is a perfect example of how the Crisis on Infinite Earths wasn't a reboot, since his entire post-crisis story revolves around him being Kid Flash pre-Crisis, and about Barry dying during the Crisis. Just say it all happened. That's better than erasing Wally again. >I think the most realistic plan to fix comic structure is to release less books at a time with more quality focus over quantity. It's not a fix really but more of a good treatment to get the ball rolling again. Definitely. Both of the big two have way too many series. Rule #1 should be that each character only gets to star in one book. If you want continuity, then you can't have two series starring the same guy going on at the same time without being hella confusing. This has been a major problem since Spectacular Spider-Man started in the early '70s. It's fine when issues are all one-offs, but not when all stories last six to twelve issues or more. But besides that, there are too many damn books anyway. Batman obviously should star in his own series. The same probably isn't necessary for Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Red Robin, Red Hood, Batwing, Batwoman, and whatever others are around now. Nightwing can be on the Titans, Robin can be in Young Justice, and maybe make Detective Comics an anthology series again, but make it all focus on Bat-Family characters. The same could be done with Superman Family characters in Action Comics. There should only be one Green Lantern book. One Flash. One Wonder Woman. One Aquaman. Martian Manhunter, as much as I like him, is just in Justice League. Sidekicks can all share a book or two in Titans and Young Justice. That's ten series right there. Do another ten or fifteen tops. Including miniseries. Try out things like Legion of Superheroes and Justice Society (which I think should be up there with the others that are practically guaranteed a series, but I realize that their sales aren't up there). Do a series for anything that has a current tv or movie adaptation, and this time, actually try to make it close enough to the series or movie, and simple enough, that casuals can pick it up and understand what's going on. (One of the only times I've seen this done well was Rebirth era Supergirl having the basic trappings of the tv show, only not being stupid SJW garbage and actually being pretty good. Do more like that.) If an adaptation ends, keep the series going if the sales warrant it. If they don't, cancel it. This would probably bring you up to a little under 20 series. Then you have five or six spots for more experimental things. Miniseries, maybe. I don't know how DC put out 52 series per month for so long, because that's like twice as many as they should have been doing. And that was only counting DCU things. They didn't even count non-DCU series. Maybe they should have counted those, and still limited themselves to like 26 at most. I'm talking mostly about DC because I think Marvel has been a lost cause for way too long and I just can't bring myself to give a shit about them anymore. But the same basic rules should apply to them.
>>1673 I know I was expanding on the thought. I'm not saying to repeat the mistakes of the past. Far from it. I'm saying there's too much baggage built up from trying to have this loose long form continuity no one can fully comprehend when issues are scattered to the wind or scattered among trade paperbacks. It's too much work for a reader to comprehend. Not to mention too expensive. A clean slate allows for ease of access for new readers. I agree. One big for each character at a time. Team books can exist but have to make sense of when they take place alongside the main series. There's just so much that can be done to change this mess of an industry.
>>1655 >I think the most realistic plan to fix comic structure is to release less books at a time with more quality focus over quantity. It's not a fix really but more of a good treatment to get the ball rolling again. I know my plan would be asking too much, too big a change, bit with DC ditching Diamond, now's a better chance than they would have had before to just ditch floppies entirely. Everything is written for the trade anyway. So just go straight for graphic novels. It would be a hell of a lot easier to understand. Put out one graphic novel every week. If each GN is about the size of six floppies, and they release 52 per year, that's the same as 26 floppies per month for 12 months. Again, keep the same output outlined above. The big names get the equivalent of 12 issues per year (so two GNS) and keep consistent output of things that have adaptations and thus are in the public consciousness, and then you still have some room for more experimental stuff. If they want to be greedy and do even more than that, fine. it would still be easier than dealing with 13 floppies released every week, and then trying to figure out the reading order when each one's story won't be finished for another six months. With one GN per week, they could organize beforehand so that if there are crossover elements, they're done so that they are meant to be read in release order. All you'd have to do is find the release date, which could be printed on the book itself. "June 2020, Week 1" or something like that. Or just put the full on actual date. Or a number. "2020, #46," but that would probably make things intimidating for new readers, and take away from the idea that these could be read standalone, which is really important. Either way, they should still tell writers to make it so even if sequel hooks and crossover elements are included, the book still needs to work standalone. And they could do recap pages like they do in TPBs, but hopefully those won't be as necessary anyway. Also, make a proper digital subscription service with the company's entire back catalog. There's no reason to subscribe to Marvel Unlimited or whatever and then be missing a bunch of random issues of Spider-Man. If they're worried about cannibalizing physical, then keep the digital stuff some amount of time behind physical. A year. Even more. I don't care. There's 80 years of stuff. If you told me I was missing out on the last five, I wouldn't care. I'd have enough to keep me occupied. But if I can't sit down and binge-read an entire series (or at least up to whatever recent point it cuts off at to encourage me to buy physical), then what's the point? Do normalfags watch Netflix series and then just skip episodes or seasons here and there? I don't know normalfags well, but I can't imagine they do that. More likely, they just move on to something else entirely. Also, having good sorting options would be important. I shouldn't need to say this, but for some reason things like Netflix have awful sorting options. So not only should you be able to sort by genre or whatever, but obviously alphabetically is also necessary. Release date is also necessary, both sorting by when a series started, as well as, probably more importantly, when an issue came out. I should be able to sit there and see a list of every book they ever published, in the order they published them, since this is the easiest way to navigate their continuity. Ideally, there should also be a "recommended reading order," but I know they'd fuck this up. They'd probably put issues that take place in the future at the end of the whole series or something. Or put flashback issues when the flashback takes place, even though it's part of a story taking place in the present. The only way to make sense of Superman's many origin stories is to read them in publication order, not to read them all at the same time. Also, it's just actually plain difficult to come up with the actual reading order for things from the modern era. Maybe do something like user-created reading orders, and let other users leave notes on these lists, to help each other figure it out. There are orders online that mostly work. Allow users to integrate those into the system. >>1679 Proper online services and ditching floppies would fix this. But I know I'm asking too much when it comes to ditching floppies. Proper online services shouldn't be a problem though. It's absurd that they keep fucking it up. >Team books can exist but have to make sense of when they take place alongside the main series. Marvel used to make it so when Wolverine went to Japan in his own book, he left the X-Men book. Even back in the '60s, with Lee and Kirby, if Thor went to space, the rest of the Avengers wondered why he didn't show up to the latest meeting. This shouldn't have been hard to continue. I want to say it's due to stories getting longer and longer, but even back then, Kirby was doing very long stories. Thor was in space for a hell of a long time, and when he came back, he felt bad that the Avengers had moved on without him. It was still a little bit of an issue sometimes, simply due to cliffhangers, but it was usually much more manageable. Again though, going full GN would make this much easier. Most would be standalone enough that Batman showing up in Justice League between two of his own GNs wouldn't be a problem. And if for some reason a cliffhanger or something made it so he couldn't, at least the people making Justice League would know where they stand in the timeline beforehand so they could keep him out of it and make it make sense.
>>1681 Really just a full GN volume direction would be better even for the artists & writers. They'd have more of a workload sure but less time to rush the product out if it's not a weekly production per issue.
>>1648 >Nowhere to go but up. They'll find a way to blast bedrock.
Any new casualties?
>>1633 It also doesn't help that Marvel and DC's worlds are too crowded. They need to take advantage of multiverse settings and segregate various groups of characters into their own appropriate settings. Golden age characters go in the Golden age world, Silver age characters go in the Silver age world, Fawcett characters go in the Fawcett world, etc. That way no body steps on anyone else's' toes and you can keep the distinctiveness of each setting. You could still use use magic or super science or something like that for the occasional crossovers.
>>2442 It's too late for that now. There's no going back. They tried. While the old multiverse had its charms, people have also spent too much time growing to like the idea of the Justice Society being the previous generation of the Justice League. They tried to revert it to the old multiverse style with the New 52, but it didn't stick. And yes, they also changed the Justice Society too much (even though making them younger actually fits with their characterizations up through the mid-70s, when the fact that they were older than the Justice League barely mattered), and later replaced them with just a shittier version of the Trinity again, but I bet that even if they did the classic Pre-Crisis versions of the Justice Society, circa 1985, people wouldn't have liked it, because it removes all of the rich history and relationships that have built up since the Crisis. I don't think the multiverse was actually as complicated as they thought it was, and merging the universes only made things way more complicated. But trying to revert things also only makes it more complicated. Even with Convergence, they made it so that the old multiverse existed, in addition to a bunch of other universes made out of all the alternate timelines and different Crisis-points, but also the Justice Society and other elements that were erased with Flashpoint were brought back to the main universe. So really, I do think this is the closest they're ever going to get to having their cake and eating it too, but it's still hella confusing, and I just hope they don't fuck it up further. But full disclosure, I'm like three years behind, and haven't read that much past Superman: Reborn, and for all I know, they already fucked shit up more. As for making the worlds feel distinct, I don't think it necessarily works. The Charlton universe and the Fawcett universe are functionally very similar to the main DCU, with the only major difference being that fewer superheroes live on those earths. You can change them and make them more distinct, like how different versions of the Charlton universe have basically been made into semi-prequels or sequels to Watchmen, but I don't think that's that different than just saying they're on Earth-One now. When Blue Beetle got his first Post-Crisis series, they didn't explain that he now lives on Earth-One and his old universe was gone. They just took all of his old history, including his history with all the Charlton characters, and said it actually all happened on Earth-One, but they never happened to interact with the Justice League guys very much. It was simple and it worked. I also don't think you need to segregate characters into their own settings except for in extreme circumstances. They don't always have to interact, and that's enough. Constantine went like 20 years while almost never interacting with the DCU, and that was fine. People kept saying that Vertigo was its own universe, so much that DC even treated it as such in Flashpoint, even though he's a damn spinoff of Swamp Thing. But just because he's a spinoff of Swamp Thing doesn't mean he has to interact with them all the time. There can be different corners of the universe, and they can interact sometimes, and sometimes they don't. You don't need an actual multiverse for that. The Green Lanterns interact with Green Lanterns and alien stuff more than they interact with Batman stuff. And there are tons of Batman stories with lots of crossover with other Batman-like characters. They don't need to be in a whole different universe from Green Lantern to work. Jonah Hex has his own little 1800s western thing going on, where to this day he teams up with all those old western characters who got cancelled decades ago. Then sometimes he meets Superman or Booster Gold. It's all good. Now, the real tricky one is Earth-Two, which I've already mentioned. The Justice Society did work well as their own universe, but they've also been made into a great concept that works uniquely in the same universe as the Justice League. Now, there were characters that stepped on each others toes when they merged, and the Crisis on Infinite Earths dealt with this. They have Robin of Earth-Two realize that he wasn't chosen to be the main Robin of the New Earth, and he doesn't belong. Then he conveniently died. Superman and Lois Lane of Earth-Two realized the same, and that their time had come, and went to "heaven." Some weird thing I don't fully understand happened to Wonder Woman and she continued to live on New Earth. Luckily, Batman had died years earlier. But on the other hand, characters like Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and Carter Hall made the Justice League's universe much richer. Well, they kind of fucked up on the execution of Carter Hall, but the concept they were going for was good. >tl;dr: Just stick with the multiversal status quo post-Convergence. It's as good as it's gonna get, and every time they try to fuck with it to make it "simpler," they actually only make it way more fucking complicated.
>>2449 The impossible complicated & complex mechanics of how DC & Marvel's comics work is all too autistic for me to handle. I'm just reading manga.
>>2504 The most complicated setup in Manga is JJBA, where you have the OG universe, Ireneverse (Universe created after Pucci's defeat, similar in all ways to OG save that Pucci never existed and the Part 6 crew + Jotaro are all different people, then Steel Ball Run universe, which actually hs a nexus to the entire multiverse in D4C, but luckily it never delves to deep into it, unlike Jorge Joestar, which is a clusterfuck and thankfully not canon
>>2510 Two universes isn't that complicated. Jorge Joestar isn't even written by Araki & should be considered fan fiction.
>>2504 The "mechanics" are simple. It's the history that's hard. Mechanically, DC's multiverse is based on each universe vibrating at a different frequency. In Marvel, idk, because their multiverse isn't as complicated. But either way, sometimes you can use magic or tech to go to other universes. The history of Marvel's multiverse is also simple. There are infinite universes, but only the one main one is that important. There was the Ultimate universe, but not anymore. This is how DC used to be too, until they fucked it up in the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The history of the DC Multiverse is the complicated thing. Partially because the fictional history is slightly different from the real history, and there's a meta-view that is semi-in continuity which is closer to the real life history. In continuity, from the perspective of a regular person, there was one original universe, but Krona used tech to view the beginning of time, and viewing the event changed it, so the universe was split into infinite universes. The original universe technically wasn't Earth-One, but out of all the universes that were created, Earth-One was the closest to the original universe, and it's the universe where the people of Krona's planet, the Malthusians, continued to live. The universes didn't start over, just continued from the point where they converged, but as if they had always been separate, with their own new histories. But the Malthusians knew there used to only be one universe, even though, from a literal perspective in their new universe, there was always a multiverse. Also, the original universe was perfect, so splitting it made it imperfect, meaning now evil existed. So the Malthusians became the Guardians of the Universe and created the Green Lantern Corps to fight evil, since they felt responsible for it. In real-life, and from the perspective of The Monitors, (sometimes less confusingly called The Over-Monitors) who watch over the multiverse, the first universe was one that would later be called Earth-Two. This is the universe that most Golden Age DC Comics took place in. In the late 1950s, DC began rebooting some of their superheroes that had been cancelled in the '40s, most notably The Flash, whose origin story says that he named himself after his favorite comic book character from when he was a kid. When 1950s neckbeards started complaining that the new Flash wasn't the real Flash, DC catered to them by having a story where the new Flash finds out that the comic book universe was actually a real universe, and the people who made the comics were subconsciously psychically viewing real events from that world and making comics based on them. The two Flashes teamed up, and since the new Flash is the one who discovered things, he called the other universe Earth-Two, even though from our perspective, that universe is older. Of course he named his own universe Earth-One. From the Over-Monitors' perspective, and sort of from our perspective, this is actually the creation of the multiverse, which straight up didn't exist before. From the Over-Monitors' perspective, the new Flash, Barry Allen, sort of created the multiverse. Now, as will happen many times, DC tried to have their cake and eat it too, which really fucked things up. See, while DC rebooted Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, and others, there were a few characters who had never been cancelled since the '40s. Namely Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Arrow. So they used to interact with Earth-Two characters as if they were from Earth-Two, but now they were interacting with Earth-One characters as if they were from Earth-One. DC then claimed that these were not actually the same characters. At some point, the series starring these characters actually switched starring characters, switching from starring the Earth-Two versions to Earth-One versions. Of course, we were never told, and the stories of the Earth-One versions still treated the Earth-Two stories as being in continuity, since of course originally they were the same continuity. But DC used this as an excuse to explain away discrepancies between early versions of characters and later versions. Superman was originally named Kal-L, but later his name was solidified as Kal-El. Well, now Kal-L was from Earth-Two and Kal-El was from Earth-One. However, most of Kal-El's history from before his first story is still very similar to Kal-L's history, except for the things that are explicitly contradicted by Earth-One stories. Notably, however, one major difference between Kal-L and Kal-El is that Kal-El was still a superhero when he was a child, called Superboy. Kal-L was never Superboy. The first Superboy story was from the mid-1940s, so this was retroactively made into the first Earth-One story. It's unclear when the first Earth-One Superman (as an adult) story is, but sometimes DC treats it as the first time he teamed up with Batman, in the mid-'50s. I'd say it would make more sense to just say it's whatever story came out right after that first appearance of Superboy, but whatever. Also, technically the discrepancies between Earth-Two and Earth-One appeared gradually. Kal-L works at the Daily Star and fights red haired Luthor. Kal-El works at the Daily Planet and fights bald Luthor. But there are a bunch of stories where Superman works at the Daily Planet but fights red haired Luthor. DC explained that technically, Earth-Two isn't the actual universe shown in Golden Age comics. Technically, that universe is Earth-Two-A, not to be confused with Earth-A, which isn't actually not a different universe, but Earth-One that has been warped beyond recognition by Johnny Thunder of Earth-Two's genie, which had been taken over by Thunder's evil Earth-One doppelganger. Anyway, later they would do stories where they go to "Earth-Prime," which is the "real world," and they explain that just as comic creators on Earth-One subconsciously see and document Earth-Two events, Earth-Prime does the same thing, but with Earth-One as well. This all sounds confusing, but believe me, it could get a lot worse. For 25 years, this was stable. The Justice League lived on Earth-One. Sometimes they visited Earth-Two, which used to have its own comics, but didn't anymore. Eventually Earth-Two got a couple new series, like All-Star Squadron, but is it really so hard to know that one series they publish takes place in an alternate universe? Sometimes they'd visit other universes, but those were never anything more than other locations where other things happen. Like Green Lantern visited Qward, the anti-matter universe, all the time. Nobody was confused by that. Now, this was complicated by the fact that DC bought some other companies over the years, and attempted to continue their continuities. So they bought Captain Marvel and continued his stories, which took place in a different universe than the Justice League. But sometimes they actually merged the universes that they bought. When they bought Quality Comics, they said that their characters were simply from Earth-Two, but then they had those characters go to a separate new universe, Earth-X, for their new stories.
In 1985, DC figured the multiverse was too confusing to exist, so they did a story where they merged them. In-universe, a being called The Anti-Monitor, basically the embodiment/god of the Anti-Matter Universe from Green Lantern stories, woke up and started eating entire universes to add them to the power of the Anti-Matter Universe. There used to be infinite Positive Matter universes and only one Anti-Matter universe, which made the Anti-Matter universe stronger, because it had equal strength to all the positive matter universes combined. By the time the Anti-Monitor was defeated, he had eaten so many positive matter universes that now there were only a few left. Earth-One, Earth-Two, Earth-Four, Earth-C, Earth-D, Earth-S, Earth-X, and The Fourth World. The Flash of Earth-One managed to break the machine the Anti-Monitor was using to hold all the energies of the universes he ate, and the heroes merged the surviving universes together, along with those energies, to make a new Positive Matter universe that would be as strong as the Anti-Matter universe. Except Earth-C and The Fourth World didn't merge, so technically the "New Earth," as it was called, wouldn't be quite as strong as the Anti-Matter universe, but close enough. Also, in the merge, Earth-One was used as the base, and the other universes and energies were added onto it. Specifically, Central Park in New York City was used as the central point that all others merged on to, so the New Earth was mostly Earth-One. During this story, a select group of heroes went back in time to fight Krona at the dawn of time and prevent him from ever accidentally creating the multiverse. For some reason I forget, these heroes got to remember the old multiverse, while everyone else immediately got fully merged and thought the New Earth was what always existed. But even those memories slowly faded and were overtaken by memories of the new merged continuity. Now here's the problem with that. They didn't always coordinate well enough on what stories were going to continue, what were going to reboot, what was canon at all. For some, like Superman, they thought about it a lot. For others, like Hawkman, they didn't give a shit. So who was Hawkman now? The Earth-Two, or Earth-One version? Were there two? Different books gave contradictory portrayals, and this would add up over time. Also, The Legion of Superheroes continued, even though they were a spinoff of Superboy, and in the new continuity, Superman was never Superboy when he was a child. Things were fucked up. In 1994 they tried to fix the problems with characters like Hawkman and the Legion by having Green Lantern become evil and absorb the power of all Green Lanterns so he could rewrite history and make it make sense. It sort of helped a little bit. Or maybe it didn't, because now the Legion was rebooted, but most of the rest of the DCU wasn't, so now Superman was friends with two different versions of The Legion since he was a kid, but he was never Superboy. But one of the Legions was friends with Superboy, but actually he was the Superboy from a "pocket universe" created by the Time Trapper which was basically a copy of Earth-One. Because oh yeah, even though they said there was only "one" universe (even though Qward, Earth-C, and Fourth World always survived), there were also "pocket universes," which are universes that exist inside other universes, and for some reason that didn't break the rules about there being only "one" universe. Alt-timelines were okay too. And alt-dimensions, but they were always treated differently in DC, like how the Fifth Dimension is two levels of reality higher than the third dimensions so beings there are relatively godlike. Anyway, when the universes merged, a few people, namely Superman and Lois Lane of Earth-Two, Alexander Luthor, Jr. of Earth-Three (the son of the good Lex Luthor from the backwards universe) and Superboy from Earth-Prime (the only superhero to exist in "the real world," but he only discovered his powers right before the world was destroyed) went to a "paradise dimension" created by Alexander (he got dimension warping powers or something). In 2005 they came back, because they whole time, they were watching the New Earth, and didn't like it. Robin died. Superman died. Green Lantern became evil. Shit was too edgy and they didn't like it. So Superboy-Prime threw a tantrum and punched reality itself (because he was looking in on reality) so hard that it warped a bunch of major things in reality, such as causing Robin to wake up in his grave after being dead for 15 years. Also, when the universes merged, Wonder Woman's history changed so now she only became a superhero after the Crisis, so she could no longer be a founding member of the Justice League, but Superboy-Prime's reality punch changed her history so now she was a founding member of the Justice League again. Anyway, Alexander and Superboy-Prime tried to split the universes back up, but doing so would destroy the New Earth. Also, all the universes they created were just copies of New Earth, but Alexander planned to use his powers to mold them all into different Earths like the old multiverse and then just pick one perfect one and destroy the rest anyway. The heroes stopped him, including Superman of Earth-Two, who was killed fighting Superboy-Prime. So the metaphor is that an angry fanboy from the real world, mad that comic books aren't like they were when he was a kid, tried to change the comic reality to his liking, and in the process, killed the very first superhero ever. Oh yeah, this whole story is called Infinite Crisis. Also the second Legion of Superheroes timeline was destroyed and replaced with a new one which was more like the old one but technically not the same.
Anyway, now there were 52 universes, which were all copies of New Earth, except The Fourth World and Earth-C, which were counted among the 52. Also, everyone remembered the old multiverse and their histories in it, but also remembered their current histories on New Earth, so everyone just had two sets of memories. At least people who existed Pre-Crisis. But anyway, a year later, Captain Marvel villain Mr. Mind, a superintelligent venusian worm, revealed that he had used Booster Gold's time traveling robot sidekick Skeets as a cocoon, and absorbed chronal enegeries while morphing into his adult form, which now was a giant multiversal moth that existed outside the multiverse and ate pieces of the universes until the heroes stopped him, but in the process he changed all those copies of New Earth so they were now different, and they mostly happened to be fairly similar to some of the more important Pre-Crisis universes. But when Power Girl, a survivor of Earth-Two who never fit into New Earth properly, went to the new Earth-2 (note "-Two" vs "-2"), she found that it was very similar, but not actually the same universe she left. It was just a copy. Also, Earth-Three? The backwards universe? That was where The Crime Syndicate lived. The evil Justice League. They died fighting the Anti-Monitor, but DC decided they were too good a concept to waste, so they had a new Crime Syndicate which was now explained to be from Qward, the anti-matter universe, which always existed and didn't have its reality altered by the Crisis. So I guess if Earth-Three was never destroyed, there would be two Crime Syndicates. Well two Crime Syndicates is nothing, because now there was also Earth-3, with a third Crime Syndicate. But the Qwardian Crime Syndicate kept appearing and was basically more important, with the Earth-3 Crime Syndicate kind of being a footnote... for now. So Final Crisis happened, but unlike Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis, it doesn't really change the multiverse much. But they do clarify that now on the 52 Earths there are 52 Monitors, one watching over each Earth. Oh yeah, also the Anti-Matter universe is also called Earth-(-1) now so I guess there are technically 53. The main Earth, once known as Earth-One, and later New Earth, was now known as Earth-0. And the Anti-Monitor was brought back to life by Green Lantern villain Sinestro, but he was never as big a threat. Anyway Final Crisis is confusing as fuck, but in two tie in issues which are actually the most important part of the story, Superman Beyond, which has nothing to do with Batman Beyond, Superman goes to The Monitor Realm and finds out that the original two Monitors (including the Anti-Monitor) from the Crisis on Infinite Earths aren't even the same kinds of beings as these Monitors, who perhaps more clearly could be called Over-Monitors. They're actually just probes sent by one of them to experiment with the Multiverse, but when he did so, he was corrupted by the Multiverse, since now he was technically a part of it, and he became addicted to feeding off its energies. Because see the Over-Monitors are metaphors for the editors and publishers meddling with the stories. Which means they see things from a semi-meta perspective. So they know the whole history of the multiverse like we do, but also they're sort of part of it, so their perspective isn't quite as high as ours. Or maybe it's higher, because don't forget that Earth-Prime is part of the multiverse, so maybe the Over-Monitors are beyond even us. Anyway, Superboy-Prime has still been messing around trying to "fix" the multiverse, and eventually the heroes just send him back to Earth-Prime, where he becomes a shitposter on the internet. Because oh yeah, Earth-Prime, the real world which was destroyed by the Anti-Monitor, has now been recreated by accident by Mr. Mind. Of course, it's not literally the same world, but both are still treated as our world. I guess technically the second one must be our world, since the first was destroyed. This means that our world didn't really exist before 2007, and everything you think you remember before then is actually just reality being warped by a superintelligent venusian worm from another universe that grew bigger than the multiverse and ate parts of our reality. In 2011, The Flash went back in time to save his mother from being killed when he was a child, which didn't used to happen anyway, but Reverse Flash went back in time and killed her. But for some reason it was Flash's fault when this broke time, and a character named Pandora had to merge three timelines together to stabilize the timestream. One of the timelines was the "Vertigo" timeline, which really was just the DCU anyway, so we can figure this timeline was exactly the same as the main DCU timeline, so that probably helped things not change so much. But there were still changes. Among these changes, now the Justice League only formed five years ago, and Superman became a superhero about a year before that. Now, in Post-Crisis continuity, Superman appeared ten years before the Crisis on Infinite Earths, so this was a big change. Everyone was a lot younger. But keep in mind that all the major events were still canon, except for ones that were explicitly contradicted. The Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis all still happened, but now all in five years. And it's not like those were the only multiversal threats, just the only ones that were both multiversal threats and also changed the fabric of the multiverse. Other changes included things like Wally West, the third Flash, being erased and replaced with a young black kid whose story was just starting. The Justice Society was also seemingly erased. But don't worry, because the Justice Society on Earth-2 still existed. But of course, they weren't really the original Justice Society. And now they really weren't, because the timestream changing affects the entire multiverse, so now they were super different than before. They weren't old, for one thing. But that was really the least of it. Also, Earth-3 was changed, but it still had a Crime Syndicate, and this Crime Syndicate was much more important than the Pre-Flashpoint Earth-3 Crime Syndicate. Nobody really talked about the Qwardian Crime Syndicate anymore, even though they technically should still exist. Oh yeah, also, just like in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, the Legion of Superheroes continued unchanged, even though that was just ridiculous. And I think at one point they claimed that actually now the Legion was actually on Earth-2, but that's just even more fucking ridiculous. Idk, I never got really into this Legion. They still showed them interacting with Superman when he was a kid.
Anyway, when Flash broke the timeline, Superman villain Brainiac happened to be time traveling to Vanishing Point, a place that exists at the end of time and outside the multiverse. So he saw the "Flashpoint" from an outside perspective, and could also see the whole history of the multiverse. Everything I just described. So he tried to go back in time to the beginning of time to become a Monitor (not an Over-Monitor, who I guess were still beyond him), but he fell into a crack in reality when he passed the point where Superboy-Prime punched reality, and then the merging of universes in the Crisis on Infinite Earths fucked him all up, and he became some sort of giant monster with multiverse powers. Now, Brainiac is literally autistic, and he likes to collect cities from different planets and shrink them and put them in bottles. Now he could do that with cities from different universes and timelines, so he did. He got one city from like every universe and timeline that ever existed, plus just other important points in history from right before history changed, like each Crisis, and that was gonna be that. But then he saw the universe from the video game Injustice: Gods Among Us (or I guess technically Injustice 2) and he just thought that shit was fucking stupid, so he decided the multiverse was gay after all and had all the cities he collected war with each other and the last one standing would get restored to a full universe. Also, note that he did actually get the current Post-Flashpoint main universe, now known as "Prime-Earth" (not to be confused with "Earth-Prime", but he got it from the future, after an evil satellite named Brother Eye took over the world and turned everyone into cyborgs called OMACs. Anyway, eventually the heroes convinced Brainiac that this was stupid, and Brainiac decided he missed his original home anyway, but he couldn't go home because he was a gross monster, so, hoping it would turn him back to his original form, he took all his energy to turn all the cities into full universes, restoring all the universes that had ever been destroyed, plus some that were actually just different points in the same universe (until now), like the two Legion timelines that were destroyed, and also some universes that weren't even technically destroyed but just evolved into Prime-Earth. Among these was a city from Earth-0 that was grabbed by Brainiac right before the Flashpoint happened. So this alt-timeline of Earth-0, which was now turned into an alt-universe, included Superman. This Superman volunteered to help pre-Zero Hour Parallax (who had been convinced by seeing Brainiac that messing with time was a bad idea) and Pre-Crisis Barry Allen and Supergirl (who were destined to die in the Crisis) go back and stop the Crisis on Infinite Earths from even happening in the new Pre-Crisis universes that Brainiac was trying to recreate, because otherwise there would be no point and they'd all just turn into a new New Earth. Also he brought his Lois Lane and also the baby they had in the year that Brainiac had them bottled in the city. And it worked, but in the process, Superman and his family got booted out to ten years before "the present" on Prime-Earth. Meanwhile, in the present, Superman of Prime-Earth was dying after being poisoned in like five different major ways at once, including a battle between Darkseid and The Anti-Monitor in which they revealed that The Anti-Monitor was once a regular guy named Mobius who was warped into a Monitor and given the need to absorb universe energies when he discovered the Anti-Life Equation, which has always been Darkseid's goal. So the Justice League lets him get the Anti-Life Equation and he uses it to kill Darkseid and turn back into Mobius, but turns out Mobius was evil even before he was The Anti-Monitor so it didn't matter, and they had to kill him too. Also Darkseid was reborn as the child of Superwoman, of post-Flashpoint Earth-3, the Crime Syndicate doppelganger of both Wonder Woman and Lois Lane, and the Captain Marvel doppelganger of post-Flashpoint Earth-3, called Mazahs, whose civilian name was Alexander Luthor. Because on the original Earth-Three, Alexander Luthor was married to Lois Lane. So technically Darkseid became the new Alexander Luthor, Jr. Then his daughter killed Superwoman and took the baby to raise him until he became a full grown Darkseid again. Anyway, Superman of Prime-Earth died and then Superman of Earth-0, who now had a ten year old son, revealed that he was around all along, and became the new Superman. So then Pre-Flashpoint Wally West appeared. Not from a Brainiac created alt-universe. He was stuck in the timestream all along, and Flash villain Abra Kadabra erased everyone's memories of him. But that's only from the lowest level of understanding. On a higher level, perhaps the level of the Over-Monitors, the timestream being warped is what made people forget him. But regular people don't know the timestream was ever warped. Turns out the black Wally West was just Wally's cousin who was also named Wally. Wally slowly started restoring people's memories, but those memories were still slightly changed for the new reality. This included the Justice Society of Earth-0 (not Earth-2) who it turns out weren't erased when Earth-0 became Prime-Earth, but just forgot who they were. Also, Wally revealed that it wasn't Barry who caused The Flashpoint. That was actually all just a cover for Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen, which previously wasn't considered to be part of any sort of DCU continuity, stealing 15 years of history from their entire timestream. Shortly after this, the "new" Superman and Lois Lane, originally from Earth-0, merged with the souls of Superman and Lois Lane of Prime-Earth (oh yeah, Lois died shortly after Superman) and this merged their realities, so now instead of appearing only about six years ago, Superman appeared 15 years ago, which significantly freed up a lot of space in the timeline for things to make more sense. But I guess it technically didn't restore the full 15 years stolen, because that would mean he would have first appeared 20 years ago. So things are fairly similar to Earth-0 continuity but compressed into 15 years instead of 20, and also Superman had a kid ten years ago. I haven't read Doomsday Clock yet. Once I do I'll come back and complete my autism, since I'm pretty sure it's the only major multiversal event that I'm missing.
>>2546 >>2547 >>2548 How do you manage to hold all this arcane autistic knowledge in your head?
>>2549 If you read the books, a lot of this stuff keeps coming up and being re-explained multiple times, since it continues being important. The hard part isn't remembering, it's understanding some of it. Like Final Crisis. I also left out Multiversity, which I think is important but maybe not. I can't tell because Grant Morrison thinks he's a wizard and makes his stories even more obtuse than the rest of them. Which I like, but that is the only hard part. Also, I deliberately mentioned the fucked up parts. Usually, you don't need to know about that because it's not important. They try to gloss over it. But eventually they decide they can't, and then another Crisis happens, and they think they fix it but actually they just make things worse. Like for example, I forgot to really get into Power Girl, and I could have, because she's nearly as fucked up as Hawkman. Power Girl is the doppelganger of Supergirl but she's from Earth-Two. When Earth-Two was merged into Earth-One, she continued to live on New Earth with most other Justice Society and All-Star Squadron characters. But there was a problem. She's technically just Supergirl, and even Supergirl wasn't allowed to exist anymore because DC wanted Superman to be the only survivor of Krypton. If they were gonna have a Supergirl, they'd just have Supergirl. But they didn't. They had Power Girl. So they tried to change her origin to other things, like saying she was actually an Atlantean or something. I think they changed it multiple times. Eventually, when Infinite Crisis happened, they acknowledged that shit was fucked, and said that the reason she kept "discovering" new things about her origin was because the universe itself was rewriting itself, trying to make her make sense, but failing. And arguably you could claim Infinite Crisis is the universe finally fixing it. After that, she and everyone else remembered Earth-Two used to exist, so now she, and all of us, could just forget about her being an Atlantean or whatever, and just acknowledge that she is a survivor of Earth-Two. Though technically I think whatever New Earth origin was given last before Infinite Crisis is still canon on some level too, because everyone now remembered two sets of memories. They remembered their Pre-Crisis memories but also their Post-Crisis memories. But for Power Girl, since her Post-Crisis history was fucked, they just prioritized her Pre-Crisis and multiverse history. I've heard Donna Troy is another ridiculously fucked up case, but I've never learned about her. Personally, I think Brainiac and Superboy are both ridiculous. I never even mentioned any version of Brainiac except for the one in Convergence, and you saw how much I talked about Superboy, but I never even talked about like half the versions of Superboy that were ever important. Supergirl is up there too, which you can probably tell given that she's related to Power Girl. But actually the reasons she's fucked up are mostly unrelated to Power Girls' reasons. That stuff I just wrote was purely trying to cover the stuff that had to do with the multiverse changing. If you want to get into individual characters changing, it gets a hundred times more fucked. I mean I mentioned Hawkman being fucked up, but never even explained how. Okay, mostly so I can try to get it straight in my own head, I'll try to explain Hawkman. Hawkman was originally Carter Hall, an archeologist in the universe that would later be called Earth-Two. He and his wife Shiera Hall (nee Saunders), who was related to Speed Saunders, another adventurer who also starred in his own series, became Hawkman and Hawkgirl after discovering that they were the reincarnated spirits of Egyptian royalty Khufu and Chay-ara, and recovering some of their magic artifacts, such as anti-gravity belts. Hawkman was the most frequent leader of the Justice Society. His series was cancelled in the 1940s. In the early '60s, DC rebooted Hawkman. The new Hawkman was Katar Hol, a policeman from the planet Thanagar in the universe of Earth-One. He and his wife Shayera Hol went to Earth to learn about their police techniques, but liked it and stayed, becoming the superheroes Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Oh yeah, Thanagar is just crazy about hawks and they already had hawk themed alien tech. By coincidence or perhaps multiversal destiny, they took on the secret identities of Carter and Shiera Hall, archeologists and museum curators. So they were functionally very similar to the Earth-Two versions, but with different origins. They joined the Justice League.
The two universes crossed over sometimes and it was all good until the Crisis on Infinite Earths. DC didn't make clear to creators which versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl to use, so in some series they'd be using Carter and in some they'd be using Katar, for a little while at least. Eventually, for some reason, what they decided to do was say that the version of Hawkman that was in the Justice League for their entire (post-Crisis) history was Carter Hall, not Katar Hol. The Hawkman and Hawkgirl from the Justice Society joined the Justice League early in its history and essentially helped to train the next generation of heroes. This continued until shortly after the Crisis on Infinite Earths (which still happened post-Crisis, but only involved one Earth vs Qward), when Hawkman and Hawkgirl got stuck in another dimension with the rest of the JSA fighting Ragnarok for all eternity. Or at least for a couple years. In the meantime, they were replaced by a "new" Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Katar Hol and Shayera Thal, from the planet Thanagar. But they had a completely new history, because most of their old history, all their pre-Crisis stories, was now given to Carter and Shiera Hall, except for the parts that wouldn't make sense if they weren't Thanagarian. Those were just thrown out. There was also another Thanagarian called Fel Andar, but even I don't understand what exactly his deal was. He and his wife were also Hawkman and Hawkgirl for a while post-Crisis, but he turned out to be a Thanagarian spy. Anyway, in Zero Hour, Katar Hall was merged with Carter Hall into some sort of "Hawkgod," but Katar was the dominant personality. But eventually he died and Carter Hall was reborn, but with Katar's body. Meanwhile, Shiera had died, but been reincarnated again as her niece, Kendra Saunders. And since Carter remembered all his old lives, and recognized hers' he still saw her as Chay-ara and was in love with her, but she didn't like him. Idk. I think they worked it out eventually, even though her current life was way younger than his. But his body was younger than his life as Carter Hall since it was Katar's body, and he and Chay-ara are both technically thousands of years old anyway. Also Shayera was still running around as Hawkwoman but I think she died around the time of Infinite Crisis or something. Also, Pre-Crisis, Carter and Shiera had a son. He continued to exist post-crisis and his continuity wasn't as fucked. He took on the identity of The Silver Scarab, and later he was a version of The Sandman, and eventually became a version of Doctor Fate. I think he died eventually or something. Kent Nelson is the guy who is usually Doctor Fate, and that magic helmet always gets back to him eventually. Post-Flashpoint, Katar Hol was brought back, and now they said that all those old Hawkman stories which were still in continuity were about him now, even the ones that were originally about Carter Hall. Even the ones that were originally about Katar Hol and then the Crisis made them about Carter Hall. Now they were about Katar again. Also the Justice Society didn't exist on the main Earth anymore. Or it did but nobody remembered. So Carter Hall was pretty much erased. But there was a version of Kendra Saunders that appeared on Earth-2, and I guess if anything she would be a version of Chay-Ara, but she didn't stay important for long anyway. After the death of Katar Hol, a man named Carter Hall realized he was the reincarnation of Prince Khufu and took on the identity of Hawkman. I'm pretty sure no previous Hawkman stories are now attributed to this version of Carter Hall. However, since the Crisis on Infinite Earths, they've established that some other characters that exist in the past were actually also reincarnations of Khufu, past versions of Carter. This includes the cowboy Nighthawk (and his wife, Cinnamon, is Chay-Ara). Those are still attributed to this Carter Hall. I'm not sure how the re-emergence of the Justice Society, and the establishment that they did still exist in this world after all, reconciles with this. Perhaps they just never had a Hawkman anymore. Or perhaps they had another Hawkman also called Carter Hall and this new one is his reincarnation also called Carter Hall. Keep in mind that even when I didn't mention it, all three versions of Katar Hol took on the secret identity Carter Hall.
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>>2545 >>2546 >>2547 >>2548 Did Manhattan at least finally unfuck everything? >>2547 > I guess technically the second one must be our world, since the first was destroyed. This means that our world didn't really exist before 2007, and everything you think you remember before then is actually just reality being warped by a superintelligent venusian worm from another universe that grew bigger than the multiverse and ate parts of our reality. Well I guess this explains why everything started sucking after 2007.
>>2548 >I haven't read Doomsday Clock yet. Once I do I'll come back and complete my autism, since I'm pretty sure it's the only major multiversal event that I'm missing. As I remember for things involving the greater DC timeline, the story had Manhattan getting Alan Scott killed to stop the Justice Society from ever becoming a thing and constantly fucking with Superman's origins to make him edgier.
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>>1632 >>1633 >>2442 >>2449 >>2545 >>2546 >>2547 >>2548 >>2549 >>2551 >>2552 >Anon tries to explain the DC Universe and the enigma of Hawkman
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Is it dead yet?
>>2672 It might as well be. Even comic stores are fighting with Diamond over up-charging, even though shipping has increased because of the fake pandemic. It's like the whole world unintentionally or intentionally banded together to kill comics. Even the comic pros are canceling their own.
>>2696 >Even the comic pros are canceling their own. SJWs always eat their own. That's nothing new.
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IDW's Chris Ryall Steps Down as President and Publisher IDW Publishing Names Jerry Bennington As President >IDW Publishing has named Jerry Bennington as President, replacing Chris Ryall who recently exited the company to pursue new busness ventures. In addition, Jud Meyers has stepped into the role as Publisher and Rebekah Cahalin has been promoted to General Manager and Executive Vice President of Operations, covering both IDW Publishing and IDW Entertainment. >Cahalin joined IDW in 2009. As IDW’s current General Manager and Head of Operations, she achieved a series of increasingly important positions within the company’s production, digital production and digital publishing teams highlighted by her work as Digital Publishing Director. In her new position, Cahalin will oversee and integrate all operations and business activities. >“I am so excited to work not only with the IDW Publishing team, but also everyone at IDW Entertainment,” said Cahalin. “This new role provides a tremendous opportunity to enhance our operational infrastructure to further drive company objectives, and make this a truly holistic environment.” <truly holistic environment https://archive.is/sWoqd#selection-1437.0-1441.291
>>3100 Can IDW just fucking die already?
>>3100 The fag they made Publisher was put on leave 1 day after he began doing the job.
>>2551 >After that, she and everyone else remembered Earth-Two used to exist, Can you elaborate on this? Is "everyone" just a bunch of superheroes or the entire population of Earth? By remembering it existed does it mean they have memories of the old Earth, or just know some mergers of Earths happened?
>>3259 What are the chances he tried to throw out a bunch of trash and got poundmeetooed for it?
>>3260 I'll admit I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think that basically anyone who had a different history Pre-Crisis now remembered that old history in addition to their new history. This means everyone, since the Crisis itself was a part of history that was changed, from being a Crisis on Infinite Earths to only being the one Positive-Matter universe vs the one Anti-Matter Universe. Now, as far as I know, no comics really delve into this very far. The main result is that main characters who used to have different histories now remembered them, and even then, those histories were usually still secondary to their post-Crisis histories, and those post-Crisis histories were still changed again after Zero Hour, and were now being changed a third time by Superboy-Prime's reality punch. The fact that the Justice Society was originally from Earth-Two didn't matter that much, because their Post-Crisis history mostly worked well, and writers wanted to keep working with that, even though theoretically both were canon. Power Girl, on the other hand, never had a post-Crisis origin that really worked, so her Pre-Crisis history of being from Earth-Two, then surviving the Crisis on Infinite Earths destroying her world, and moving to Earth-One which then became New Earth, was prioritized over her old stuff. In the case of Earth-One characters, a lot of Pre-Crisis history which was changed by the Crisis on Infinite Earths also became canon again during this time, and it's slightly unclear if this is because of Superboy-Prime punching reality, or if it's because of Alexander Luthor, Jr.-Three fucking with the fabric of the multiverse, which is what caused everyone to remember Pre-Crisis history. I guess really Alexander Luthor, Jr.-Three's actions technically made those things canon again, and sometimes Superboy-Prime's reality punch made them extra canon by also changing the Post-Crisis history to match it. The implication seems to be that everyone is acting just based on Post-Crisis history except in particular cases, like Power Girl, and it's just that the Post-Crisis history was changed by Superboy-Prime's reality punch to make it so that history was closer to Pre-Crisis history anyway. They don't treat it like Superman suddenly remembers he was friends with Lex Luthor when he was a kid (which was Pre-Crisis history but not Post-Crisis history), but rather, suddenly Superman always remembered that he was friends with Lex Luthor when he was a kid. Actually, that's not the best example, because shortly before Infinite Crisis, Superman had a separate story in which he went into the timestream and chose between two versions of his own history, changing his Post-Crisis history right before Infinite Crisis would have done that anyway, but whatever. You don't need to worry about that. The principle stands true regardless. A better example might be Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman didn't suddenly remember that she was a founding member of the Justice League in an alternate version of history which was changed and then she remembered that it was changed. Rather, she just suddenly always remembered that she was a founding member of the Justice League, and seemed to totally forget that just a few issues earlier, her history was that she only became a superhero after the Crisis on Infinite Earths (or whatever it would be called Post-Crisis, when it only involved two Earths). Theoretically, this is because Superboy-Prime's reality punch changed her Post-Crisis history right around the same time that Alexander Luthor, Jr.-Three made her remember her Pre-Crisis history, so the second history she now remembered happened to be pretty close to her current Post-Crisis history anyway. Theoretically, this means that even after Infinite Crisis, people still wouldn't remember aspects of their Post-Crisis histories that were changed by Zero Hour or Superboy-Prime's reality punch, but they would remember their Pre-Crisis histories and their Post-Infinite Crisis histories. Also, I'm saying Post-Infinite Crisis histories, because that's how most people say it, but technically what changed history in Infinite Crisis was Superboy-Prime's reality punch, and technically that happened before Infinite Crisis and they only revealed what it was during Infinite Crisis. So like Jason Todd woke up in his grave before Infinite Crisis, because the punch happened before Infinite Crisis. But again, this is complicated by the fact that the reality punch changed things all throughout history, not just at the moment that it happened.
Now, there's a chance I'm wrong, in which case the only people who would have remembered would be the group of heroes who fought Krona at the Dawn of Time during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, because due to specific reasons that I forget during that story, those are the people who retained their Pre-Crisis memories even after the Earths merged, and then slowly lost those memories over time. So if only a select group of people were going to keep their memories, it would be them. Luckily, this included practically all the important characters, including the really fucked up ones like Power Girl. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is why Power Girl didn't just get erased when the Earths merged anyway. That was the case for other Earth-Two characters like Robin (Dick Grayson) of Earth-Two and Huntress (Helena Wayne) of Earth-Two. Luckily, they died shortly after realizing that they would never fit into the New Earth. But Power Girl didn't, and that fucked up everything. Notably, during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, they even mention that a few characters who were created Post-Crisis would have actually been from worlds other than Earth-One if the Crisis didn't happen. Like Kyle Rayner was supposed to be from Earth-D, I think. If I recall correctly, Earth-D was basically a new universe created for the Crisis on Infinite Earths, but was one of the Earths that survived and merged, so it had a substantial effect on New Earth (even though technically the energies of infinite other previously-unexplored universes would have had an effect as well), so any new stuff in the history that wasn't from one of the other Pre-Crisis Earths could be said to be from Earth-D, and Kyle Rayner would have been the Green Lantern of Earth-D. I don't think they ever did a story where Kyle grapples with the aspects of his Earth-D history that he would theoretically now remember, since we saw pretty much none of Earth-D anyway. Writers decided just to prioritize his Post-Crisis New Earth history, which we actually read, rather than delving into his new history in a universe that died ten years before he was introduced. Also, I suppose now is the time to mention that a couple characters actually did remember Pre-Crisis history permanently. Most notably The Psycho Pirate, a supervillain from Earth-Two who was used as one of the Anti-Monitor's main pawns. I think Harbinger, a character created for the Crisis on Infinite Earths, a girl from Earth-One who was rescued as a baby by The Monitor and then raised by him, also remembered the Pre-Crisis history, and after the Crisis made it her job to protect the record of the Pre-Crisis history while also recording the new Post-Crisis history. And at some point she died and Donna Troy, the original Wonder Girl of Earth-One (now New Earth) got her job and also then knew about both histories. After Flashpoint, even though the Crisis on Infinite Earths still happened, it seemed like in the new version of it, the main Earth never had much interaction with other key Earths such as Earth-Two or Earth-Three. Nobody seems to remember the Justice Society or any version of the Crime Syndicate. Later they interact with characters from Earth-2 and Earth-3 (technically not the same as Pre-Crisis Earth-Two and Earth-Three, but rather changed versions of Post-Infinite Crisis Earth-2 and Earth-3) and act like this is the first time they've interacted with any of them. However, it's also a plot point that their memories are all fucked, and the Justice Society did actually exist on Prime-Earth (the name that Earth-One/New Earth/Earth-0 took on after Flashpoint, not to be confused with Earth-Prime) the entire time. This is an entirely different Justice Society from the one that exists on Earth-2, which Post-Infinite Crisis Power Girl made very clear was not the original Justice Society. The original Justice Society moved to Earth-One, which then turned into New Earth, then changed its name to Earth-0 and then Prime-Earth, and still lives there, even though people sort of forgot about them for a while (including themselves). I'm not sure if the people of Post-Zero Hour New Earth/Earth-0/Prime-Earth ever regained their memories of events that were changed by Zero Hour or Infinite Crisis. Everyone, even in real life, seems to just ignore the fact that Zero Hour changed history at all. Except for the time that Post-Infinite Crisis Batman pointed out that Superman had introduced him to three different versions of The Legion of Superheroes, and said that they were all his friends when he was a kid.
>>3287 Thanks.
Warner Bros let go of 650 people, and these layoffs include DC comics. On top of that HBO will let go of 175 people. WB will eliminate vacant positions, and company in general is clearing out the house and will restructure soon. https://archive.vn/9EYXO Given how badly Disney is doing, I wonder when Marvel's comics division will be trimmed.
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>>3679 There is actually a some more recent news https://archive.vn/wip/aRUY3 https://archive.vn/5j7n8 Gone: >Mark Doyle (Black Label Executive Editor) Possibly gone: >Bobbie Chase (global initiatives and digital strategy) >Andy Khouri (Editor) >Brian Cunningham (Senior story editior) >Hank Kanalz (SVP of publishing) >Bob Harras (EiC) Other news: >Marie Javins might be elevated from Executive Editor of Global Publishing Initiatives & Digital Strategy to Chase's former position >DC collectibles are getting sidelined >Jim Lee is no longer the publisher but still working at DC
>>3681 Most of these people deserved to get fired ages ago.
>>3682 It's rather sad that it took the global economy going tits-up in a single year for these people to finally get fucked. Imagine: Had corona-chan not happened, these people would likely have stuck on indefinitely until they quit on their own terms -- maybe getting picked off by #Metoo if you were lucky.
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DC cancels Teen Titans, Young Justice, Suicide Squad, Hawkman, and more http://archive.md/7ASoM
>>3905 So this is the end then.
>>3947 DC Universe is dead. Jim Lee is promising a continued commitment to "diversity & inclusion" despite the obvious shitty sales numbers. Yeah I'd say the end for DC is nigh.
>>3905 Was Young Justice even good?
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>>3949 No.
>>3950 Oh wait they're cancelling the comics? Not the shows?
>>3951 Yes dingus!
>dingus
>>3949 the first two series served to show events between episodes of the show. We'd get story events like Superboy seeing visions of when Snapper Carr was tricked into betraying the league, how Clayface was created, the unified origin story of Grod, Ultra-Humanite and Malah, and how Gar's mom died between seasons haven't read any of it after those
>>4007 You're still thinking of the wrong thing here. He's talking about the show, you're talking about the show comics, the article is about the Bendis comic.
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Remember guys. The psychotic murderer clown that literally NUKED A FUCKING CITY just to fuck with Superman hates the 70 year old long dead Nazis. http://archive.md/Zhhkz
>>4343 >injustice is that shit still going on.
>>4345 Yep. What you expect DC to not milk anything mildly successful endlessly?
>>4346 But he's been established to be dead for nearly 7 years. You gotta move forward at some point.
>>4343 Didn't the Joker team up with some girl who covered her nipples in swastika tattoos and was a hardline Nazi?
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>>4347 That's why this is a Year Zero prequel book. >>4348 Yep. In Frank Miller's All Star Batman & Robin. The same comic where Batman is a complete psycho that has Robin paint everything gold just to fuck with Green Lantern. I really hate Frank Miller. He's just such an out of touch edgy nutjob. Only got worse as time went on.
>>4349 >Batman is a complete psycho that has Robin paint everything gold just to fuck with Green Lantern I have to ask, WHY?
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>>4351 Because Frank Miller writers Batman like a complete lunatic ready to snap at a moment's notice.
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>>4352 This reads like a parody. Are you sure this shit was meant to be read with a straight face?
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>>4353 Yes. This is just how Frank Miller is. He made this too.
>>4351 Yellow is green lanterns weakness unless you mean why he's fucking with Green Lantern specifically. He explains it,Hal has delusions of grandeur not that Batman doesn't but their delusions clash with each other. >>4349 Unless we find out superman knew all along and allowed joker to kill lois so he could bang Wonderman this story changes nothing.
>>4355 It's not meant to change anything. It's just to milk the property more.
>>4356 How droll Worst part is injustice doesn't even have a great story to carry it
>>4357 I always thought the crux of Injustice's story was "how many established characters can we kill off for shock value?"
>>4358 I felt they wanted grim darkness with the >how many established characters can we kill off for shock value?" as a side effect. Never could appreciate them riding roughshod on character motivations.
>>4349 Y'know I usually hate short cropped hair but that nazi chick looks smoking.
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>>4361 >>4349 >Bruno I always assumed that Woman was a man. I mean fucks sake the name alone
>>4365 Yeah it's a male given name. It's probably intentional to make her more butch.
>>4366 the face looks like the jokers too.
>>715 I feel like this could all have been avoided if we just switched to multi-story monthly comic anthologies where everything is one big issue instead of forcing event tie-ins to shill whatever the big two want to push right now. Shonen Jump-style anthologies without insane degrees of crunch/internal competition inherent to jap comics is basically the ideal format.
>>4484 Its been tried several times, they never work outside the European market.
>>4484 Anthology series were the norm in western comics throughout the Golden Age and into the mid-1960s. To combat inflation and avoid raising the prices of each issue, issues got shorter and shorter, until it was impractical to have more than one story per issue, unless that story was going to be very short. So the result was Ant-Man's solo stories only being 1/4-1/2 of an issue long, and eventually the other half became Hulk, and then they just decided to give the whole thing to Hulk because he was an absurdly popular character and could carry a series to himself easily. Many problems arose from this eventually, however. Like when inflation continued, and costs continued to rise, but the books were already too short to shorten any further. So they eventually had to raise costs anyway, and now comics are absurdly expensive, with prices rising well beyond the cost of inflation. Decompression, stories becoming slower paced and longer, also hurt things. When they started doing whole issues about a single character, like say with Superman (the series, not the character), the stories were still generally as short and as fast paced as the stories in anthology series, like Action Comics or World's Finest, but they would have multiple of these short stories per issue. Eventually they would start getting longer, but still not take up the whole book, and when they eventually did, they would break them up into chapters, which were each the size of a regular story. That's why a lot of comics from the '60s say on their cover that they are "A BOOK-LENGTH NOVEL!" They're not really as long as a whole novel, but they were two or three times as long as a regular comic story, and since the general style back then was dense and fast paced stories, they did take a relatively long time to read. Now things are so decompressed and slow paced that it takes maybe five minutes to read an entire issue, which is only 1/6 of a story, if you're lucky. Now when they do "Anthology series" their idea of it is that each issue is still a single story, but the next issue will be unrelated. Or maybe the story will continue, but six issues from now an unrelated story will begin, which is just fucking stupid and is just a one-shot or miniseries. Costs are high because the industry has decided to cater to the collector's market, and thrown all other markets to the side. To cater to them, they now exclusively print in color, with fancy coloring technology, on fancy paper. The fancy paper is somewhat needed to make sure the fancy color actually stays on the page. They also exclusively sell at collector's shops, where regular people never go, and their audience is too small to effectively use economies of scale. If they printed in black and white, or at least with shittier coloring on shittier paper, put a bunch of issues together, and then sold them at checkout stands at grocery stores, like every other magazine, then they'd probably make money. In fact, they'd definitely make money, because that's how Archie does it, and Archie sells like gangbusters, but you'd never know it, because nobody gives a flying fuck about Archie. You don't think Marvel and DC, who own the most famous characters in the world, would make more money than Archie if they just used Archie's actually logical distribution model? Of course they would. But they're fucking stupid and would have to restructure their entire business model to do it, and it would piss off the distributor (which DC already did, so that's one step in the right direction) and all the specialty shops. But fuck those shops. They can continue what they're doing, but catering to them at the expense of everyone else, including the companies and the customers, is fucking stupid. Like you said, it would make a lot more sense to just sell a bigger book with all the Bat-Family books together, or all the X-Men books together, which would reduce cost. Lower cost further with shittier color and paper, and actually sell in places people go to so you can use economies of scale, and it wouldn't be a problem to convince people to a slightly more expensive book if it included much more content. Five bucks for a huge collection wouldn't be bad. But they wouldn't do that. They'd make it hella expensive, just like it is right now, which is one of the main reasons nobody buys comics anymore. It costs like $50/month, if I'm being generous, to buy all the Batman related books that come out, in continuity with each other, every month. That's fucking ridiculous. Really they need to cut down on the number of series they have, especially the number that are about the same fucking character. But they're too fucking stupid to do that. Make Detective Comics however long an Archie Digest is. Make each issue have a single Batman story that is the main story, Include backup stories about Robin/Nightwing/Batgirl/Red Hood until the issue is full. If they insist on making the stories so decompressed, then they'll at least have more pages here so they can actually tell the whole story, or at least more of it. Sell it at the same price as an Archie Digest. Or even just make it like 80-100 pages and sell it for no more than five dollars. Beyond five dollars and you lose the impulse buy at the checkout. But keep it at that price and you might just get kids buying it every month, if you actually keep the stories comprehensible, but not just throwaway garbage. Go back to the writing style and reliance on continuity that was used in the '70s and '80s, you know, when comics were actually successful. Also, make it so you can only read that one series and not feel like you're missing out on a ton of stuff.
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The New Mutants movie finally came out.
>>4552 did anyone think it would be good? With all those delays?
>>4552 >white-washing As if the movie wasn't already trying its hardest to pander to SJWs. Another example of them eating their own. So be it.
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>>4555 Well Faiz, as someone who wants accurate characters in adaptations of any sort, it is a negative when any characters race is changed. Whether made white, black, mexican, korean, or whatever. Accuracy in casting should be the easiest thing to get right. They ginger erased Rahne too but at least she wasn't a nigger. Still it's a problem they can't at least get the characters to look like they should unless they're black because suddenly it's only a problem if the black people aren't right.
>>4556 I agree that I want accuracy, but this guy is dumb for being mad especially about that, when it's no different than anything else that he mentioned.
>>4560 I mean he is the co-creator of the original comic team.
Even if Marvel and DC finally kick the bucket, no one will learn from it. Not the industry, nor the consumers. All will be blamed on Corona.
>>4585 Then they'll learn from it when all the brand new woke crap they release fails too long after the 'rona is long gone.
>>4587 >Then they'll learn from it No, they won't. It's going to take a decade at minimum (And, who knows how much money that will serve no other purpose than to go down the drain) before the industry actually becomes profitable again. The Comicsgate crowd have filled the niche for the more dedicated customers, but everyone else is going to avoid it like the plague for years.
>>4585 >>4588 No major company will learn but at least with indie creator books they won't be beholden to be stuck in a giant universe like Marvel & DC. Meaning some actual creative freedom. Indie books are the only comics worth reading. Not counting manga as that should be classified separately despite being comics.
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>>4343 >A murderous evil clown >worried or even "caring"about "bigotry" Into the trash it goes
>>4591 Wen I say learn I mean that they and their ideas will continue to repeatedly to wash out of the industry until it's either filled with content that people want or dies entirely. I don't expect the woketards to ever have any sort of epiphany or even to lower themselves to "slumming" for the proles.
>>4599 Of course the SJWs never learned. If they did they wouldn't be SJWs.
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>>4343 Didn't this already happen in a Marvel crossover?
>>4622 At least there it's patriotism. Whereas Tom Taylor made it an issue of "bigotry".
>>4623 yeah the psychotic murderous clown is totally patriotic.
>>4634 Yeah the psychotic murderous clown is totally woke & against bigotry. Both are dumb. One's just less dumb than the other.
>>4634 He's patriotic in that instance because it's funny. It's not supposed to be an actual message. SJWs are too stupid to understand that.
>>4640 Funny and an excuse for two bad guys to fight eachother.
>DC shoots down '5G' or reboot speculation - "not going to happen" Looks like there might be hope for DC yet. https://archive.md/sHFVO
>>5050 Hey look it's black Batwoman. Also no there's no hope for the dying industry. As pozzed & backwards as it would've been, a clean slate reboot isn't the worst thing for comics. Though they'd just repeat the same exact mistakes.
>>5055 It would never be a full reboot. People think DC has rebooted like four times before. DC has marketed things as reboots before. The Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Flashpoint. Of course none of them are actually full reboots. They reboot bits and pieces while keeping the majority, and then there's all the meta stuff that becomes increasingly important as the event drifts further into the past, until everyone in and out of universes acknowledges that the timeline was changed and then remembers the pre-reboot stuff too. In fact, this isn't even a bug, it's a feature. Because the reboots never work out, and people want the old things back, because that richer history leads to much deeper stories. Rebirth was marketed as basically undoing things that Flashpoint changed, so much so that they established new changes just to change them back in the same story. Infinite Crisis before it basically undid all of the major changes from the Crisis on Infinite Earths and even Zero Hour. But then all that happens is that the fact that things were changed and then changed back becomes part of the story too, and it's still more complicated than if they just left it alone. It's just about tone and writing style. There were no reboots or false reboots until 1985, but almost any comic from before then is very easy to understand just because most didn't rely so hard on continuity and very long arcs. With Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, lots of things were marketed to newbies as reboots, and newbies could understand them, but they weren't actually reboots, the writers just wrote in a way that newbies could actually understand. They could have done that without Flashpoint. Just the higher ups don't demand it from them. Regardless, 5G not happening is a good thing, obviously. But as you say, it might not be enough. They're still letting themselves be infected. Even without the reboot, they'll still ruin things unless they're kicked out, but so far, that's not happening.
>>5061 Yeah I remember New 52.
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WE WUZ KANG N SHIET https://archive.md/70NVX Guess Kang's skin color in the comics. Hint: It ain't black.
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Kitty Pryde is not gay, or at least bisexual. Also a subtle reminder that SHE'S JEWISH! DID YOU KNOW KITTY PRYDE IS JEWISH, READERS?!
>>5067 *now
>>5067 But Jews hate the gays.
>>5069 Would be a real shame if they found out then.
>>5066 i chortled
>>5066 I know that Kang has a fairly unique look, and that they wouldn't give a fuck about changing it anyway, but isn't Kang supposed to be Reed Richards from the future, or his dad, or his son, or some sort of retarded shit like that? Early on they even talk about him maybe being Doctor Doom from the future, but that never made sense and never stuck. My point is, it would be cool if the same guy played Reed Richards and Kang. Also, wtf is Kang doing in a movie that has nothing to do with The Fantastic Four OR Captain America? His whole story revolves around the two of them. Having the time guy appear in the movie about the guy who shrinks really small sounds like they took a script for an Atom movie and just swapped the DC characters for Marvel characters.
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>>5072 Apparently he's been retconned & rewritten so much that no one knows who he's supposed to be. >it would be cool if the same guy played Reed Richards and Kang. I don't want any characters to get niggerfied. So sick of this policy they've had to just tokenize a random character by making them black. They could use it to set up young Avengers with Iron Lad & Cassie Lang. They've been in the process of replacing Hawkeye with that chick I can't remember the name of.
>>5073 >they've had to just tokenize a random character by making them black I don't follow this shit, but I want to ask if the people doing this ever respond as to why they chose to race swap characters. I already know what the likely answers will be, but I'm curious as to how they frame it.
>>5072 In the last Avengers movie, time travel tech they used came from Pym. It relied on navigating through quantum realm to travel through time. It makes sense why time travelling villain would be in Ant Man because of that, but Kang would still work much better as Avenger's villain in this case. Time travel was kind of an ass pull that had no consequences. It would feel less cheap if time travelers had to remember that Kang might take notice and come after them.
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>>5073 >Apparently he's been retconned & rewritten so much that no one knows who he's supposed to be. To be fair he's always been a slaver though.
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>>5074 How they frame it is for the sake of "diversity". Pretty much everyone in the new The Eternals movie coming out is either race swapped or gander swapped if not both. There's no logic to it beyond diversity quotas & not caring about the source material. If you can even call that logic. Characters like The Ancient One were changed because of China though.
>>5075 That's the other really stupid part. They're wasting one of the most notable Avengers villains on a solo movie, and Ant-Man at that. If it was Captain America, at least he'd be related to the story, but it's still stupid. It's like if they wasted The Masters of Evil in a Hawkeye movie.
>>5078 They're just setting him up to be the next big bad. Remember how they wasted The Mandarin by him being a fake only to tease the real Mandarin in a short & in Ant-man? He's supposedly going to be the villain in Shang Chi.
>>5078 >>5079 Yeah, they will probably pull a Loki. Kang shows up, but Pyms and Ant-Man manage to drive him away. Then he will show up again but better prepared and with reinforcements, so Avengers need to get involved.
>>5081 Best case scenario they use Kang to lead into Annihilus. They'll fuck up his design too though. They fuck up all the villains.
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Your daily reminder that award shows are nothing but a sham. They're a circlejerk of the pedowood elite patting themselves on the back & validating the wokest among them. https://archive.md/deS0t
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Hawkman's been tarred & BLACKED now. With absolutely no outrage from twitter who condemn white washing. https://archive.md/o5Sbz
>>5275 What do you expect, you racist cracker? Everyone knows egyptians were and are black. And so were/are jews, and arabs, and europeans, and asians, and indians. Never forget. >WE WAS KANGS AN SHEEIT.
>>4622 That reminds me of that bit from the Rocketeer where the mafia turns against the Nazis.
>>5077 >The Ancient One I remember Robert Cargill talking about that in a video once. >>5175 I haven't seen this show at all so I feel like I'm missing nothing. That and I hate Damon Lindelof with a passion.
>>5516 You're not missing anything good. https://youtu.be/ut3QkuarFsA
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Is the CW an actual, real thing?
>>5529 niggerwoman?
>>5529 Unfortunately. They were handed a golden opportunity to completely redesign & make a brand new bat suit for an original character. Then they just completely squandered it.
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>take colorful villain from the comics >redesign him for the movie because you're embarrassed by actually making a comic book movie >make him a grey colorless monster that you can kill off or forget about easily Ah the MCU design formula does it again.
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Here's your M.O.D.O.K. show, bro. No this isn't a Robot Chicken sketch.
>>5853 How large of a hamfisted orange man allegory can I expect?
>>5853 great now I want a blowjob from the female Modok
>>5853 Looks like Howard the Duck dodged a bullet. I wonder how bad the Hitmonkey one will look.
Here's the sneak peeks. No. No it's not good. It's.... horrid. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=awZ8o3lZa2M https://yewtu.be/watch?v=MxDTV2AC44c
>>5853 What fresh hell is this?
>>5920 Was Modok Jewish in the comics?
>>5920 How in the holy fuck did they make a M.O.D.O.K. show so cringe?
>>5934 patton oswalt
>>5067 How many major X-Men are straight at this point? Is it just Wolverine and Cyclops? How long until Marvel makes them hatefuck? >>5275 Between this and the cuckoldry in JLU I wonder who it is at Warner Bros. that is demanding for Hawkgirl to get Blacked.
>>5938 I mean the current comics have Wolverine & Cyclops in a polyamorous relationship with Jean. They probably fucked each other at some point. On the brightside, WB is losing a lot of money. AT&T will probably start trimming the fat soon.
Apparently AT&T are planning more layoffs. How long can DC last at this rate?
>>5992 It won't. Comics are a pointless medium that isn't making them money. They'll start laying off toy & comic divisions. Then TV & finally movie divisions.
>>5993 Im pretty sure divisions like rooster teeth are the first to go, they barely have any worthwhile value to them. At least DC has their IP's and history, so there is a chance the comics division will survive somehow.
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>>715 >I don't think colorists are one of the biggest costs though. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure colored ink and mass production of it is the cost issue here >Whales are not good long term source of income. Tell that to the gambling industry, and the gachashit games industry, which I consider essentially an extension of the gambling industry. >>1494 >you have all the young kids who (Who their mentors pounded into their head that they have to "be better") show up and don't give a shit about where the line is because "we're 'good' no matter" and then proceed to do and become EVERYTHING that their mentors were fighting and stood against? Just like real life. >>1504 >Shut the fuck up, Misha 10/10 >>1673 >hella >>2545 >DC explained that technically, Earth-Two isn't the actual universe shown in Golden Age comics. Technically, that universe is Earth-Two-A, not to be confused with Earth-A, which isn't actually not a different universe, but Earth-One that has been warped beyond recognition by Johnny Thunder of Earth-Two's genie, which had been taken over by Thunder's evil Earth-One doppelganger. Couldn't they just say much more simply that the original comics about Earth-Two are actually from Earth-One and the subconscious channeling doesn't result in perfectly accurate comics? After all, the comic creators still have free will, so while they may be subconsciously drawing on events from Earth-Two, their own fancy might have them make changes to the comics, or the editors could make changes to a comic that is otherwise accurate to Earth-Two from the original artist/writers subconscious channeling. This would give them a free pass for all sort of inconsistencies that they won't have to explain individually anymore, and probably can't explain individually because of clusterfuckery. >>2546 >There used to be infinite Positive Matter universes and only one Anti-Matter universe, which made the Anti-Matter universe stronger, because it had equal strength to all the positive matter universes combined. By the time the Anti-Monitor was defeated, he had eaten so many positive matter universes that now there were only a few left. <A single thing having equal power to something that's infinite, but neither have infinite power and one can gain more power by consuming the other <Chipping away at an infinite number until there's a finite number left DC's retardation knows no bounds. >>2547 >This means that our world didn't really exist before 2007 Is this why so many think the world went to shit right around then? >Reverse Flash went back in time and killed her. >But for some reason it was Flash's fault when this broke time Is that what this mp4 is about? >>2548 >to help Parallax (who had been convinced by seeing Brainiac that messing with time was a bad idea) >go back and stop the Crisis on Infinite Earths from even happening Ah yes, messing with time is bad so we should fix time with more time travel. >>2545 >Anyway >>2546 >Anyway >Anyway >>2547 >Anyway >Anyway >>2548 >Anyway >Anyway >Anyway Your increasing use of "anyway" to begin a paragraph is tickling my autism. >>2551 >They had Power Girl. So they tried to change her origin to other things, like saying she was actually an Atlantean or something. I think they changed it multiple times. Eventually, when Infinite Crisis happened, they acknowledged that shit was fucked, and said that the reason she kept "discovering" new things about her origin was because the universe itself was rewriting itself, trying to make her make sense, but failing. This is essentially a microcosm of the whole multiversal clusterfuck. They want everything in the same continuity so they mash everything together and when that doesn't work they explain the inconsistencies as multiversal timetravel fuckery that will cause an existenital crisis for all of reality over time since there's no real fixing the problems they created and things get retarded and meta. >>2552 >After the death of Katar Hol, a man named Carter Hall realized he was the reincarnation of Prince Khufu and took on the identity of Hawkman. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MAKE IT STOP >>4349 >Goddamn >>4352 >Goddamn >Goddamn >Goddamn >Goddamn >Goddamn >Goddamn The guy throws around the word Goddamn so much that I've noticed it sort of sounds like saying Gotham with a lisp. >>4622 >>4640 Yes, the presentation and intent are clearly different.
Wow. A lot has happened while I was away. Marvel is 60% of Diamond comics distribution. DC getting chipped away by AT&T to save money. IDW attempting to get into animation after their movie and netflix shows flounder. Kickstarter institutes another gatekeeper to replace their old one. Kwanza gets a movie deal for racist comic Black. Dynamite gets shunned by CG for cowtowing to the mob. All this because of years of not listening to their customers. It's getting so bad that it makes me want to get into making my own comic (but not right now). I think there is an indie revolution happening in all mediums to replace these woke arbiters so we can get actual good entertainment. Personally, I don't think CG is the solution since out of a few top creators, it mostly is just fart, sticking it to the SJW and inside jokes instead of making actual good comics which would help the industry more when the dust settles. I'll probably make my own comic soon once I upgrade all my equipment to handle the workload.
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>>5853 Why do they keep making crapping stuff like this ? Are they doing this on purpose or something, I don't understand.
>>6008 Of course it's on purpose. They unironically think it's funny & exactly what people wanna see.
>>5853 Looks fine, but this comes from a Stop Motion autist, I have no idea who Modok is so I'm judging it by puppet quality and background design.
>>6023 Watch the actual sneak peeks.
>>6025 Not the guy you're replying too, but the script being garbage doesn't make the stop motion garbage as well.
>>6032 But he doesn't know the stop motion is even good till he y'know actually watches it in motion.
>>5529 The thing that bothers me the most is that fucking wig over the suit.
>>6025 >>6035 Just watch it, the stop motion is... fine, I like Modok expressions, the rest tho... doesn't really look that good, it reminds me those pantsahat The Office videos but at least those were parodies, I don't understand why would anyone make an unironic Stop Motion sitcom, but whatever, at least this shows there's still people wanting stop motion for commercial purposes in the industry, I've always thought Pantsahat Russian potato series and the Astolfo one would make a really cool segment in Adult Swim.
>>6086 >I don't understand why would anyone make an unironic Stop Motion sitcom It's happened before. I don't think it was very successful. https://youtu.be/r80NP1zFY-Q
>>6088 I watched this thing once on Isat at the 2am in the morning like... ten years ago or so and I totally forgot about it until now. Yes, it's bad.
>>6088 Glenn Martin, DDS has such a weird feel to it. It all feels so sterile. Watching the show gives me the same feeling as being in a nice airport. I don't even dislike this feeling, but it's very strange. Also, I'm surprised you didn't mention The PJs instead.
>>6088 I remember seeing this on Nick at Night, but I dont remember a single second of it.
>>6100 Would you call The PJs a sitcom? Also I've never seen it.
>>6103 Yes, The PJs is definitely a sitcom. I remember liking it when it started, but I never kept up with it. I heard later they replaced Eddie Murphy with DL Hugley or something like that.
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This is your Swamp Thing now.
>>6340 Looks illustrated by a Gobelins student. Not bad tho, just weird for a concept like Swamp Thing.
>>6352 Should be noted the book is only like 180 something pages. This doesn't happen till 170 something.
>>6352 >Looks illustrated by a Gobelins student. Take that back most students of Gobelins have a better sense of colour usage and design and composition. Having said that any "Young Adult" (and not fat Amerifat Cat Lady chowing down on hoe hoes buying this crap) would not be interested in this shit when the OG Moore Run of Swamp Thing is available.
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>>5938 >Between this and the cuckoldry in JLU I wonder who it is at Warner Bros. that is demanding for Hawkgirl to get Blacked. Anon I....
>>6002 >Tell that to the gambling industry, and the gachashit games industry, which I consider essentially an extension of the gambling industry. Good point, but that only works if you can at least replace your supply of whales. The comic industry can't, and despite decades of catering to whales over normalfags, they've continued declining the entire time. It's obviously not working for them. >hella I've been using it for like 25 years and I'm not going to stop now. >Couldn't they just say much more simply that the original comics about Earth-Two are actually from Earth-One and the subconscious channeling doesn't result in perfectly accurate comics? Perhaps, but it wouldn't change the fact that the actual Golden Age comics don't actually match Silver and Bronze age Earth-Two continuity. They could say that even our writers on Earth-Prime were also giving slightly distorted versions of their visions of the real Earth-Two, but then that would invalidate the idea that the comics are "real" in another universe, not just for Earth-Two, but Earth-One and every other earth as well. That would defeat the point of Earth-Prime as a concept. It would also be confusing when Superman visits Earth-Prime and then the comics he sees based on his universe aren't actual exact recreations of his universe, which means the Superman visiting Earth-Prime isn't really the one from the comics. Minor issues, but there are a few of them. Either way it ends up being a clusterfuck. In reality, Earth-Two-A is just a footnote explanation for turbo-nerds, and Earth-Two is just treated as if it did match the actual Golden Age comics. Also, the comics that Barry Allen read on Earth-One might be different than the comics that we read on Earth-Prime, because otherwise it would cause problems with people knowing things like the fact that Clark Kent is Superman, Bruce Wayne is Batman, Diana Prince is Superman, Arthur Curry is Batman, and Oliver Queen is Green Arrow. Presumably the comics read on Earth-One do not reveal this information, though I'm not quite sure. It's actually pretty weird that all of those characters existed in comics before they showed up "in real life" on Earth-One. Through the 60s they pretty much just avoided using the Earth-Two versions of those characters, but eventually the autism overtook them and they had to be used. I'm not sure how they justified their identities not being known on Earth-One though. >A single thing having equal power to something that's infinite, but neither have infinite power and one can gain more power by consuming the other Because the Positive-Matter Universes and Anti-Matter Universe each make up half the multiverse, but the multiverse is infinite. Perhaps its power is not. >Chipping away at an infinite number until there's a finite number left Well that's just to show how absurdly powerful and dangerous the Anti-Monitor is. His power defies comprehension. Until later when they bring him back and Superboy-Prime uses him like a suit. But that's because he's hungry. He already ate a lot of universes before the Monitor was able to marshal the forces to fight him, and that's what made him so powerful. >Is that what this mp4 is about? Yes, it actually is. I know it's a parody, but it's a parody of that moment, and really that's just one of the things Reverse Flash does. He's pretty much out solely to fuck with Barry Allen in as many random ways as he can. >Ah yes, messing with time is bad so we should fix time with more time travel. No see technically it's not time travel anymore. Brainiac had already grabbed those universes from those times and brought them to the present. Now they were going to leave them where they are, in the present. Their timelines are already screwed up because Brainiac took them to the present and left them there for a year, so they figure they might as well at least stop the universes from getting destroyed in this new future they're already in. So now there are universes where, from their perspective, it's 1987, 1995, 2007, and 2012, but actually they exist in the present, but their whole universes got pulled forward in time. >This is essentially a microcosm of the whole multiversal clusterfuck. Yes, it's a pretty clear metaphor, and a literal justification given which both retroactively and preemptively justifies any plotholes and contradictions that ever happen. >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Actually it gets worse, with bits I hadn't read yet when I read that. It's not that Carter Hall realized he was Prince Khufu after Katar died. Carter was already Hawkman in the recent past but got lost in the Dark Multiverse on an adventure, and was only rescued after Katar died. The main JLA guys seem to have no previous knowledge of him, which keeps the implication that most past Hawkman stories, even ones that were previously attributed to Carter, even ones that were once attributed to Katar, then changed to being about Carter, then back to being about Katar, are still about Katar. However, perhaps a few stories which did not involve things that the JLA would necessarily know about, and which would involve specific Carter history and not Katar history, such as the Egypt stuff, would still apply to Carter. Also, this same story retcons that Khufu, Chay-Ara, and Hath-Set are not originally from ancient Egypt. Actually they're cavemen from the time of guys like Anthro, Immortal Man, and Vandal Savage, and they reincarnate due to exposure to the same elements as Immortal Man and Vandal Savage. When Hath-Set killed them in Ancient Egypt, all he did was sever their ability to remember their lives from before then in future reincarnations. Also, the version of Hawkgirl that appears in this story is Kendra Saunders, who previously in the post-flashpoint era had never appeared, though her Earth 2 doppelganger had. This perhaps leaves the implication, though not the confirmation, that the basic aspects of stories of Shiera Saunders/Hall being Hawkgirl, dying, and being reincarnated as Kendra are still canon, but the JLA never knew about any of it. Also, when Carter got lost in the dark multiverse, he was recruited by the dark god Barbatos, who was originally the assistant of a third counterpart to the Monitor and Anti-Monitor, whose job was to create new universes, but Barbatos killed his master and took over his realm, the Dark Multiverse, for himself. Later he got Carter Hall to take his old job and Carter was turned into some sort of giant hawk demon monster that ran something called The Forge of Worlds, which all really seems quite outside the realm of what Hawkman is usually about. But fuck it. Barbatos was aware of Carter from the Return of Bruce Wayne storyline when Bruce Wayne gets shot back to cavemen times by Darkseid and then Barbatos follows him from then to the present time. He's also the one who corrupted Hath-Set. Long story short, Carter gets rescued and goes back to normal.
>>6365 > Clark Kent is Superman, Bruce Wayne is Batman, Diana Prince is Superman, Arthur Curry is Batman, and Oliver Queen is Green Arrow. Obviously I fucked up and Diana and Arthur are not Superman and Batman. Well there is that one world in the Dark Multiverse where Batman basically merges with Aquaman, but in that case it's more like Bruce Wayne becomes Aquaman, and it's also the dark reflection of the Rule 63 universe, so it's actually Batwoman becoming Aquawoman.
>>6366 Everyone is Batman!
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>>6367 Yes, that is a thing. A bunch of Earths in the Dark Multiverse where Batman killed and took on the identity of one of the Justice League members, and then they all teamed up together for a whole Justice League of Batmen. Except Batman, who instead of killing and becoming Batman, killed and became The Joker. The group is called The Dark Knights. They're important in the current big universal crossover going on right now.
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>>6373 I'm aware. It's retarded.
>>6367 I actually would like to see a crossover of all the Batman cartoons.
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>>6373 I actually like WonderWoman and the Flash's evil looks here, those are pretty nice designs. Like an Antipaladin and cyberknight or something. Green Lantern is bad, Nightwing is downright uninspireing. Who's the big hooded guy? As for the one in the middle with all the gay vampire robins, he looks like he wouldn't be too out of place in a Hellraiser comic
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>>6388 >ww >flash >nightwing Anon they're all Bruce. All dark versions of him. Armored up Batman is a version that took the armor of Ares & conquered the world. Flash Batman is a version of Batman that fused himself with the Flash of his world to eliminate all crime by being everywhere at once with his speed. Green Lantern Batman is a young Bruce who, after his parents were killed, he was given a Green Lantern ring. But he tried using it to kill the mugger & corrupted it with his evil will. The "Nightwing" I think you're referring to is is a version of Bruce driven so mad by the Death of Alfred he had Cyborg create an AI program based on him. It went insane & spread like a virus. Turning Bruce into essentially an evil Cyborg. The big hooded guy is Barbatos. An entity that's responsible for all the Dark Multiverse. A multiverse of negative worlds destined to die. He claims to be responsible for all versions of Batman by spreading his images across time & space to influence him.
>>6376 I'm glad they forgot Batman Beyond exists. I don't want to see what they'll do to it.
>>6395 Oh no Batman Beyond hasn't been forgotten. They've been doing comics for it since New 52. Granted it's a vastly different version completely separate from the cartoon.
>>6398 Look man I just don't want a reboot animated show.
>>6365 >Actually it gets worse >Carter was already Hawkman in the recent past but got lost in the Dark Multiverse on an adventure, and was only rescued after Katar died. I can't handle this. Somebody needs to kill off every single Hawkman until none are left.
>>6399 Lucky for you that won't happen. DC & WB put no effort into animated content anymore.
>>6400 They did that before, but then Carter came back to life in Katar's body. Hawkman doesn't need to be complicated, but they simply can't decide what they want to do with him, and they need to, or else it's just fucked. What I would do is say that Carter is the JSA version but he died and was reincarnated as Katar. Simple. I think they actually went with an angle like this in the New 52 briefly but it was only because Katar had amnesia and people mistook his name as Carter and he forgot he was an alien... or something. I didn't read more than a couple issues of that series. They want to keep using the Egyptian elements, and they don't really have much to do with Katar, but if they just said Katar was a reincarnation of Carter, and have him remember his past life (perhaps after he was already active as the second Hawkman on Earth for a while) then they would have an excuse to have him continue to fight Hath-Set or whatever. Justice League Unlimited did this a little bit by saying Shayara was the reincarnation of Chay-Ara, but of course Shiera didn't exist in that universe, and then a character who was essentially Katar Hol turned out to not be, and he was evil, and then Carter Hall shows up but they treat him like a bad guy even though he's right and then he gets cosmically cucked as Shayera gets BLACKED. Upon closer inspection, the last season of that show is kind of fucked. So the problem in the DCU now with Hawkman is that now the Dark Multiverse shit is important and Carter being lost in the Dark Multiverse for years is important to that. Maybe after another Crisis the simplest thing would be to say that it was actually Katar who got lost in the Dark Multiverse when everyone thought he died, even though that would drastically change how he got lost in the Dark Multiverse. Perhaps they could say he only faked his death and then went back to Earth and then got lost in the Dark Multiverse. Otherwise, just say Carter was the JSA Hawkman but died, then Katar was the JLA Hawkman, and at the point where Katar died for the first time, and Carter came back to life, instead say that that's when Katar realized he was the reincarnation of Carter. The complicating factor is Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman. So Chay-Ara reincarnated into Shiera, and then we can say she died and reincarnated into Shayera. Kendra Saunders complicates things. I guess at some point you'd need to say Shayera died and was reincarnated into Kendra, but there are a lot of stories where Shayera and Kendra are active at the same time. But I suppose just trying to act like most of both characters' histories after that point now apply to Kendra would be simpler than most of the fuckery that's happened in regard to Hawkman. You could say that when Kendra regained her memories of her past lives, that included Shayara, which would justify Kendra doing stories about Thanagarian stuff, just like Katar realizing he's a reincarnation of Carter would justify him doing Egyptian stuff. The other, more minor problem is that Katar and Shayara typically take on the secret identities of Carter and Shiera Hall, which works when they're an alternate universe. It didn't even work post-Crisis though,and I think maybe they simply didn't give them secret identities. I don't recall. You could have Katar pretend to be Carter Hall, Jr. I suppose. It's been done before, like when Lex Luthor put his brain in a clone body and passed himself off as his own son.
>>6398 Is it completely separate from the cartoon? They try to treat it like a continuation of the cartoon sometimes, even though it has many significant contradictions. It's not helped by the fact that there are many alternate takes on Batman Beyond, some just being minor future stories that are meant to take place in the same universe, and thus are very different from the cartoon. Also, the Batman Beyond comic that was going since New 52 (or was it actually going slightly before?) is labelled as being an alternate Earth in things like Multiversity, where they treat it as simply the DCAU universe. But then things like Futures End have Terry come back in time to the less-future, and they treat it like he didn't travel to an alternate universe, even though it's supposed to be the future of Prime-Earth. Or is this supposed to be a completely different Terry than the one who was in the ongoing comic that was going on at the same time? One significant problem with Batman Beyond being treated as canon to the comics is simply how different Batman continuity has become from the DCAU. Return of the Joker doesn't work at all, for example. You could say that in the comics the same thing happened but it was Jason instead of Tim, since DCAU Tim is Jason in all but name, but that still doesn't work because Return of the Joker was basically a very loose adaptation of Death in the Family either, with a significant postscript that takes place years later. Then the comics basically copied that postscript when they brought Jason back and had him become Red Hood, which is of course an alternate identity of the Joker. But beyond that, it kind of feels like bullshit if the comic universe doesn't have either Dick or Damian destined to become future Batman. I suppose they could use the same excuse as the show, that Bruce, for some reason, pushes away all of his loved ones, but you can't use the Return of the Joker excuse. Maybe you could say it actually happens to Damian, I guess. Instead what DC has done in the past was say that Damian was the Batman who trained Terry, but that's stupid. Also they don't want to nail down what the "near future" of the main universe is. I suppose they could do it as long a prolonged that gets references to it in "present" stories, and then at the end of it, once the Batman Beyond series is over, do something that makes it so the future might be changed but might not, so we aren't sure if it's canon or not. But that's not as fulfilling as it being the canon future, and of course DC would want to keep a Batman Beyond series going forever. Though now that I think about it, I think in the DCAU, the time they went back in time and saw the dawn of time (with that giant hand that makes the universe) might have changed the future (and the rest of history as well). It turned Warhawk black, for one thing. Maybe it changed some other stuff as well.
>>6403 >but then Carter came back to life in Katar's body. Then kill him too. Never rest until Hawkman is purged from the multiverse and whenever he shows up stamp him out with extreme prejudice.
>>6405 That is precisely the motivation of his arch-nemesis, Hath-Set. Stopping the cycle of reincarnation is hard, even though they never show what Carter reincarnates to after he dies, I guess because he keeps coming back to life. I suppose you could just not kill him but lock him up, put him in The Phantom Zone or something, but we all know that never works long term. And even if you did kill Carter, Katar would show up, or Fel Andar, or Charlie Parker (Fel Andar's son who passed himself off as Carter Hall's son), or Carter Hall's actual son, Hector Hall, who I don't think has been a Hawkman before but he's had like twenty other identities and would be a logical way to continue the mantle. Also, the character Zauriel was created to be a new version of Hawkman, because all previous Hawkmen were dead and off limits at the time, but DC didn't let the writer call him Hawkman. Then shortly after they brought back Carter Hall anyway. Plus, Thanagar is a whole planet of Hawkmen. And in one Rebirth story, they reveal that the Thanagar we knew all along wasn't even the real Thanagar, it was only a colonized outpost, and the real Thanagar was way bigger and more powerful, because they lead a large intergalactic empire. Also I probably glossed over this but there's also, on Earth, some sort of mystic hidden society of bird-men called Feithera, and one guy named Northwind was adopted as Carter Hall's son for a while, and then slowly morphed into more of a bird monster than a bird man, and I think he died eventually. But they could always bring him back. There will always be a Hawkman. Even without the reincarnation aspect, there are like a million other Hawkmans.
>>6404 It is. Don't think about it too much. >Return of the Joker doesn't work It's a good movie. It's not trying to adapt anything & while it sucks Tim gets such a poor lot in life, the movie is still good. Saying it "doesn't work" isn't fair just because you don't like it.
>>6391 >The big hooded guy is Barbatos. An entity that's responsible for all the Dark Multiverse. A multiverse of negative worlds destined to die. He claims to be responsible for all versions of Batman by spreading his images across time & space to influence him. I love they took a wrinkle meme from Grant Morrision's Batman run and then other writers chose to make the Barbatos thing a literal god.
>>6407 I mean it doesn't work as part of the mainstream DCU. It would take a lot of fudging it to make it fit at all. I don't mean it doesn't work as a movie. It's maybe my favorite part of the whole DCAU, which I love. I guess you could say Return of the Joker happens but with Damien instead of Tim, since DCAU Tim is just Jason, and Damian and Jason kind of have similar personalities. They could do a Batman Beyond series where the first issue does a series of flashbacks that establish Batman Beyond, but not the rest of the DCAU, happened in the future, but have these flashbacks show changes, like Damian in place of Tim. Then act like instead of the rest of the DCAU, the regular DCU happened in the past. You're still left with the additional problem of the actual JLU. Do you treat them as canon? I suppose you could swap them out for other characters the same way you could swap Tim for Damian. But you're still left with the problem that DC is very hesitant to confirm what happens 40 years in the future. They don't want to say that fucked up stuff will definitely happen to Robin, and Superman will be brainwashed by Starro for decades. They'd always just leave it was one possible future, and that's lame. The other future time periods that are recurringly used in DC, like the century, 25th century, 30th/31st century, 58th century, 63rd century, and 853rd century, are all far enough that they just treat them as "the far future" and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart except for the characters that are in them. There was that post-Crisis Hex series that had Jonah Hex go to the Post-Apocalyptic 21st century, and presumably it's still canon, especially since they use that apocalypse as the reason future people don't know as many details about the present as they normally should, but they certainly don't reference that future anymore, because it seems too close to the present.
>>6409 >I mean it doesn't work as part of the mainstream DCU. It would take a lot of fudging it to make it fit at all. How motherfucker? Stop being autistic. The Timm DC animated universe has a pretty fucking clear timeline. You're really overthinking things to the point where you're just rambling nonsense.
>>6409 Wait do you actually think the Return of the Joker & Batman Beyond are part of the mainline of comics? If so, are you absolutely fucking retarded?!
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I found an article about Hawkman's fucked continuity. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ContinuitySnarl/Hawkman According to this abridged history, everything went wrong around the time of 1989's Hawkworld, because DC mandated it become an ongoing rather than a simple origin-retelling.
>>6410 The DCAU has an extremely clear and consistent timeline. It's way better than the comics in that regard (and many others). I was just saying that trying to make Batman Beyond fit into the DCU, like the comics have tried to do several times, never works well without taking away several of the most memorable elements from Batman Beyond. >>6411 Read the last few posts in that reply chain. The topic of Batman Beyond comics came up. I'm talking about why the comics never work as well as the show, and why the show has never been adapted into the mainstream comics continuity well, despite many attempts.
Reposting from /v/. Twitter is going insane over Chris Pratt. Some of the co-stars of the MCU have come out and defend him, which has turn the mob against them as well. http://archive.is/4hIh4
>>6412 Wait so yeah, something which I forgot to mention, and this article does mention but doesn't really focus on, is that the New 52 isn't a full reboot, so the Carter Hall seen right after is the same Carter Hall from right before Flashpoint, as implied by the fact that he is shown to have a storied history, which is implied to just be (a perhaps slightly altered version of) his pre-Flashpoint history. Of course, Carter was the current Hawkman as Flashpoint happened. Then a year later they revealed that Carter was actually Katar all along, but perhaps with the implication that a real Carter did exist at some point. That real Carter was then later revealed to be lost in the Dark Multiverse. So I suppose what happened is that the real Carter Hall was operating until some point when he got lost in the Dark Multiverse, and then Katar showed up with amnesia and got identified as Carter, and not only that, but they apparently looked so much alike that he was able to just seamlessly assume Carter's identity, both as Carter and as Hawkman. One could theoretically argue that this doesn't even invalidate the previous Post-Crisis Katar Hol, who theoretically still could have existed. This is just a second Katar Hol. Third, if you count the Pre-Crisis version, who has a completely independent history (which was largely added to Carter Hall's history post-crisis). Fourth if you count Fel Andar, who disguised himself as Katar Hol.
>>6413 Alright. You did this is an extremely confusing way. To set the record straight there's multiple iterations of Batman Beyond. The original cartoon is part of the DCAU with Batman The Animated series, Justice League, etc. Meanwhile there have been multiple alternate versions of Batman Beyond in the comics aligned with the mainline "continuity". Which for comics we know is a complete fucking mess so trying to make sense of that madness is a fool's errand.
>>6417 >Meanwhile there have been multiple alternate versions of Batman Beyond in the comics aligned with the mainline "continuity". Which for comics we know is a complete fucking mess so trying to make sense of that madness is a fool's errand. Yes, this is the part I was talking about. I was talking about why it's hard to adapt the show in any actual good way. And honestly, for a property that has only existed for 20 years, and only existed in comics for much less than that, Batman Beyond comics are much more convoluted than anything. Hawkman at least has the excuse of being around for 80 years. Batman Beyond comics aren't fucked because the mainline continuity is fucked. They're fucked in different and unrelated ways. Batman Beyond isn't fucked up because of any Crisis or Flashpoint or anything.
>>6418 They're fucked simply because they're not as good as the original series & try to tie in some ways the mainline comics history going on at the same time. The show works because it's building off of a clear concise universe already established. The comics don't work because comic continuity makes no sense. I still don't understand how you're saying Return of the Joker doesn't work. Unless you still mean that it doesn't work as being adapted into the comics.
>>6419 >& try to tie in some ways the mainline comics history going on at the same time. Well yeah, that's what I mean. They keep trying to do that so that they can market it as a regular DCU series and not just a comic continuation of a cartoon, since those are frequently disregarded by many. >I still don't understand how you're saying Return of the Joker doesn't work. Unless you still mean that it doesn't work as being adapted into the comics. Of course that's what I mean. I never implied anything different. Everything I wrote was about why it's difficult to fit into DCU continuity, and how trying to make it fit removes many of the elements that make it so good. >The comics don't work because comic continuity makes no sense. Naw, that's not why. The Batman Beyond comics don't not fit in the DCU because some crisis or other makes it confusing. It just doesn't fit because the DCAU and Batman: The Animated Series have significantly different characters and histories than the DCU and the main version of Batman and his related characters. And mostly it will never work because DC would never want to commit to saying it's the actual canon future. They would always cop out and make it only a possible future, which is lame. Now, if I were to go full autistic with it, here's what I'd do. I'd say the cartoon happened mostly but perhaps with slight changes, established through quick flashbacks (like just one panel each) establishing things like Damian being in Return of the Joker instead of Tim. Then, since I'm already dealing with a future that they would never actually significantly build toward in "present" stories, I would end the whole Batman Beyond series with some sort of apocalyptic event that takes place in a flash-forward issue that would be after Epilogue (which is of course still canon), and that event leads to the future of the 1980s HEX series. If both of these futures are going to be ignored, they might as well be ignored together, and if we were to try to mash the round peg that is Batman Beyond into the square hole that is the DCU, Epilogue would take place only shortly before HEX anyway. And I'm always counting HEX as canon because one of the coolest things about Jonah Hex is that even though he's participated in Crisis events, he's almost never had any parts of his history altered by them, including the time he went to the future and did Mad Max shit.
>>6415 I'm glad I quit twitter, even if I was using it "ironically" because I'm much happier without reading this stupid fucking shit. What did Chris Pratt do now?
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Release the Snyder cut, they said.
>>6427 The Snyder cultists will still defend this. They have this idea in their minds that Snyder's interpretations of these characters is the perfect definitive representation.
>>6429 Honestly I'm genuinely interested in how the Leto joker would fit into Snyder's "dark" take on the justice league. A trainwreck's a comin.
>>6430 None of Batman's villains really fit with Snyder's take on him. If he's a ruthless killer then why are Harley & Joker still alive especially after killing Robin?
>>6431 Because Bat's wants to hate-fuck Joker.
>>6434 All the more reason Harley should be dead.
>>6429 I'm sure the Snyder Cut will be shit, but I also think it will at least be a cohesive movie. The Whedon cut was way too clearly two different movies cut together. There was way too much tonal dissonance. The other version of Justice League was shit too. Maybe this one will be 1% less shit. >>6431 The obvious explanation would be that they are just so good that they escape and Batman can't kill them.
>>6438 >The obvious explanation would be that they are just so good that they escape and Batman can't kill them. Suicide Squad proves that wrong. Snyder's horrid fucking writing & characterization is completely antithetical to this dynamic.
>>6439 Well fine, then they're just plain lucky and escape every time for that reason.
>>6440 Still dumb & not enough of a basis yet to determine that. It's just bad writing.
>>6441 It's a deliberate decision. Not a good one, but after Batman v Superman, WB heavily retooled Suicide Squad to make it deliberately not mesh with the previous movie. But then the same director was under contract to do Justice League, and WB was just thankful when his kid an hero'd so that they could try to salvage it. But doing that to a different movie in the same universe is very different from doing it to a movie that was already mostly finished.
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>>6442 Obviously they did a piss poor job if a movie that's supposed to be in the same universe makes no sense within that universe. Sure you can have that logic that Batman doesn't kill any villains there because it's after Superman's death & he's trying to turn over a new leaf. But that's still poor. It's implied by Robin's spear that he & Bruce had no problem killing criminals in the past. Why Bruce would hold back from killing the people responsible for his partner's death just makes no sense with what we know about Snyder's version. Also the Robin outfit is fucking stupid. Who's fucking idea was it to put a campy short short suit in a movie that's supposed to be grim & gritty? Even fucking Titans has a better Robin suit.
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The live action capeshit industry continues to make terrible costumes worse than what a cosplayer can make for a third of the price.
>>6629 Honestly the only bad aspect about the costume is the helmet, the rest seem fine.
>>6635 I think it would look better without the fucking hood honestly.
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>>6635 You're not thinking hard enough then. The oversized Iron Man helmet is the glaring flaw but then you look at the sagging pants & the awful sagging shin guards. The leather jacket is fine but then they add a hoodie under it. Think about how restrictive the movement is. Then there's the chest piece. It's not bad but it doesn't go with the pants & they had to include the worst symbol possible on top of it. They should've gone with no symbol at all. Hell it doesn't even make sense why he's Red Hood in the context of the show. Jason didn't die last season.
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I don't follow comics, but I saw this shared earlier. Is this retarded shit real?
>>6778 What's the context of this?
>>6778 >"white man with a god complex" Why the fuck are you a vigilante and not a cop if you're that fucking pissy about Iron-man going outside the law? Why the fuck is it apparently fine for a white WOMAN to go outside the law? Either SJWs can't comprehend going around the law to uphold the law for the sake of good or they're trying to dupe people into thinking that's impossible. If you unironically think this way, you have no fucking business writing a superhero comic. Most of them ARE about bringing criminals to justice while technically being a criminal themselves. I get that this person is just saying subversive shit to fuck with people's heads, but it's so fucking mindboggling that anyone thought this made sense in the line of fucking WORK they're in. If this line of thought is supposed to be true, then why the fuck are you still writing superhero comics, you cunts? Go make the faggy YA shit you actually want to do.
>>6781 She's writing subversive shit when the fucking mouth piece is guilty of everything she accuses tony stark of. If i had more context i can maybe see if the writing about the hypocrisy of hellcat but i doubt that
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>>6780 >>6797 Just looked it up. It is from this.
>>6781 SJWs literally advocate for different rules based on things like your race and sex. Anything Tony Stark does is bad because he's white and male. Anything Patsy Walker does is good because she's female. That's literally what they openly advocate for. They have no business writing superhero comics because they literally have no sense of justice or morality. They're real life supervillains.
>>179 I'm a newfag heard about this thing called Alterna Comics, is it worth chcecking out?
>>6855 I've read blood realm which I thought was good and the chair, which I thought was overrated. Buisness wise they don't talk down to their customers so I plan on buying more of their comics eventually.
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>>6799 >They're real life supervillains. Do not compare the long and proud history of super villains to dime-a-dozen moral crusaders thank you.
>>6860 fine theyre villains then >>6798 just as i thought it was trash.
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Just read manga.
>>6986 Sir this is /co/.
>>6987 Yes and capeshit comics are garbage. Hence why I say to just read manga. You can read indies too but they're still far from consistent in quality.
Spam
>>6988 >Manga Personally I prefer eurocomics and argentinian comics
>>6991 Also acceptable. Don't know how many good ongoing euro comics there are though.
>>6986 Heh they're already bleeding money, why do they keep doing this shit?
>>6993 I've long stopped trying to rationalize these companies making horrid decisions. Even before the age of woke, big two comics have made completely backwards choices that've stagnated the industry, butchered characters, & made alternatives more appealing. It only all got way worse as the woke began to fester in.
>>6992 >ongoing There aren't many of them ongoing in the same sense American ones or manga are (aka new issue every week/month). There are quite a few good series that are getting published once every few months to every few years. Many of them have been mentioned in Eurocomics thread already. Some of these books are Undertaker, Thorgal, Requiem, Dylan Dog, XIII, Orbital, and so on.
>>6986 read ravages of time
>>6996 >chinese No thank you. While their armor & ancient aesthetic is neat, the culture of china & the people who rule(d) it disgust me.
>>6999 this is from hong kong and is from the three kingdoms period
>>6999 Hey, anything before the Manchu clusterfuck that was the Qing is actually pretty cool. Obviously, the communists are retarded, and the Qing had the absolute genius Ci Xi, whose master plan was "I'll poison my husband and son so I can keep power, oh fuck, I'm dying and my heir is this six year old boy." The Yuan dynasty is pretty cool.
>>6999 here's some folk metal to listen to while you read it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GMb-yMbax8
>>6993 >>6994 It's because they've literally been taken over by people who hate the medium, genre, characters, and histories, because they perceive it as something that mostly appeals to males, and therefore it's evil and must be destroyed. In addition to manga and european comics, also just read old american comics. The ones that were good enough to make the SJWs want to destroy them.
>>6994 They thought their dedicated userbase would never leave them.
>>6638 Hey, It's Ermac!
>>7018 In their defense, had Corona-chan not thrown a wrench into it, they'd probably have been able to milk them for another 10-15 years.
>>7044 It would've been a slower death but a coming death regardless.
>>7009 Thanks Anon.


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