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Non-licensed Superhero games Anonymous 04/12/2021 (Mon) 23:26:10 Id:10953d No. 283672
Post'em : superhero games not based on an existing license or IP from a media outside of vidya. Doesn't matter if we're talking good or shit, western or eastern.
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>>283672 Why would you post a Prototype image that contains the shitty second game? Ignoring that Prototype is also an interesting case for this thread since it was based off the same engine as a previous licensed Hulk game though I'm not sure if the change was due to losing the license or if they just wanted to make their own thing.
>>283678 Honestly it feels really close to said Hulk game, I remember seeing that as a criticism of it when the game first game out.
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Posting, this has a TCG connected to it as well I think but considering you posted Champions which is based off a P&P RPG I figure it is fair game.
>>283678 >Why would you post a Prototype image that contains the shitty second game? Read the filename for the image I put. 8^D >it was based off the same engine as a previous licensed Hulk game though I'm not sure if the change was due to losing the license or if they just wanted to make their own thing. It's not the first time a dev re-used not only game engines but ideas present in a licensed game they had to do in order to bring out the best for their creative vision. Prototype's just one of those games and Radical should probably be thankful they got to do Hulk first because they might have flunked it if Prototype came out without prior know-how. >>283680 Honestly, Prototype feels like either a Symbiote Hulk game or the type of gameplay Venom was promised to have in Ultimate Spider-man, given what was going on in the Ultimate cuckmics at the time I know what I wrote, fucking Bendis was writting Spider-man at the time
I too want to play as the Empress of Back Pain and her faithful sidekick, Atomic Cunt Wedgie.
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Gravity Rush is one of the only good games (or rather, two of the only good games) in the last decade. Interesting and original mechanics that are inherently fun to use, fun locations to explore, good challenges to do, nice visual and music styles, and a good story though it gets pretty retarded by the end. Also, Kat is best waifu, and it's nice to see a superhero story where the superhero is just a nice person who wants to help, instead of angsty bullshit or a self righteous cunt that acts more like a villain than a hero. Speaking of angsty bullshit, you have InFamous, though I do still like it. The first game is okay but it's pretty simple and the "morality"/alternate path system is incredibly simple and pointless. The second game takes the same concepts but makes everything feel much more substantial, and actually makes it worth playing through to see both the good and evil routes. InFamous Second Son and its standalone DLC, First Light, are both okay (First Light does have a lot of content for a standalone DLC), but they aren't as good as InFamous 2. InFamous 2 also has standalone DLC where you become a vampire, and it's fun, but pretty short.
>>283745 Both of those characters were killed in less than 10 years by Sony.
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Th
>>283750 InFamous Second Son was already approaching poz territory, though it had the nerve to make the main villain a woman, which would never happen today. That said, any later sequels would be horrible. Sony shut down its whole Japan studio, so we'll never see another Gravity Rush, and again, maybe it's better that way. While I will miss Kat and the world that was built, maybe some day some of the devs or even just some fans can make a game with similar gameplay, because the gameplay is very unique, and it's what I'd most like to see again.
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Give Superhero League of Hoboken a try. It's presented as an RPG, with stats and leveling and random encounters, but it's mostly just window dressing and the main meat of the game is a point & click adventure game where you use insanely useless "superpowers" (like a Mexican who can eat the spiciest foods with no distress) in unique or highly specific situations to foil the villains. Has a kind of Mystery Men feel to it, but actually has some humor to it.
>>283672 Wasn't champions online based on an old PnP game?
>>283672 Sonic Blast Man 1 & 2 on the Snes. Cosmo Police Galivan, also on the Snes. Hagane, also on the Snes. E-Swat on Mega Drive.
>League of maidens Are you sure that game isn't a scam?
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I dont think this necessarily qualifies as a super hero game but its art style is reminiscent of it. It is very cheesy and one could be forgiven for thinking it is a Samurai Showdown rip off (which it is). I however still like it, enjoy some ost's in it, and enjoy playing it.
>>283876 It is out, and playable. It's not good, and has phone game tier UI. I reserve scam for things that are basically selling JPEGs and promises of a game to come. That being said, it still connects to a back end server so if the like 3 dudes making it fold any money you put in (Why would you do this?) will basically be (even more) wasted.
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This game is so fucking weird, apparently it was made by many of the same people that worked in Moon RPG, and some Human titles.
>>283902 >>283876 Ignore anything with advertising like that. Ideally, you would ignore anything with advertising.
>>283773 No idea, I couldn't find anything linking it but I admit I didn't search as hard. >>283831 >Hagane, also on the Snes. Fuck, I forgot. >>283767 Where was the pozz in Second Son? Was it because of the drugged-out-of-her mind hobo laser bitch? Because the DLC was pozz more than anything, at least you could go and be Bitch Trainer in the main game which was quite something for a western game back then. >>283876 >Are you sure that game isn't a scam? Why, you're looking to play it through official means? But I can see what you mean >>283903 I wonder how many people here still remember the threads where we had about Captain Rainbow being the true forgotten hero of the Wii. Or were around those days.
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Are the Infamous games worth emulating? >>283876 >>283672 What disgusting, unrealistic, pedophile tier depictions of super HERoes.
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>>283936 >Are the Infamous games worth emulating? The first two for sure. The second one even more so. Third has neat powers and a very neat idea about how it approaches multiple powers and the movesets it get but everything else is very meh and it screams "PS4 Launch Title" >HERoes Kek. I would be more disturbed by that shit but I already knew about it and the supposed "controversy" around it and the woman responsible for its "atrocious, anti-feminist, pedophilic redraw"I also posted that and the FemBroly pics in another thread some time ago How much you wanna bet that this will be your new She-Hulk in the upcoming Hackvel Cinematic "Universe"?
>>283929 >Where was the pozz in Second Son? I said it was approaching poz. More than the previous games, but nothing very explicit. I'm sure if we got a new entry, we'd see Second Son as the beginning of the downfall. As it stands, I'd still say it's pretty good. Even First Light is pretty good, despite knowing that it was the devs testing the waters for making a full on SJW protagonist.
>>283955 It's probably for the best then that we got Ghost of Kojima then. I hated First Light though. Never have I seen a character, who's main gimmick is to half-ass copy powers and use them half-hazzardly, would be a more fun character to play as than the originator of these powers. And I'm not talking about Delsin's multi-powers gimmick, just about how Delsin uses Neon as he does.
>>283956 >half-hazzardly
>>283991 Mistakes like that are a diamond dozen in this doggy dog world.
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>>283876 >chuck art
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>league of maidens finally out >check reviews & tons of people warn it has something in it Not surprised, pretty sure that "game" was a paywalled patreon piece of shit & I think it may have also had a kickstarter I'm not sure. They took like four years to make this shit & then they uploaded malware into it great.
>>283686 Wait, Freedom Force isn't just a pair of video games?
>>283876 Are her comics any good? I recall she has no connection to the game other than the devs paying to get her put in it since shes big in the cheesecake artist sphere.
>>284120 hell if I know, I just like beeg amerikan tetties.
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Are there any super hero games that are actually any good out there? I'm so burnt out on capes that I don't know if I want to see anything from the genera ever again.
>>284130 Most of the ones posted in this thread.
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Rent A Hero for Genesis got translated a little while back. Be a hero, get paid >>283773 yes it was. It even got a spinoff comic book with scenarios in the back one kind of cool thing it did was portray battlemaps from the top and two sides so you could get an idea of where you were in 3D space
>>284153 Isn't there a Dreamcast or XBOX remake of this?
>>284170 Nigger someone posted it already. >>283757
>>284130 Like >>284131 said but if you want on games based on existing licenses, try the ones made by Capcom, Konami etc from back in the SNES-PS2 eras, they were great. And that includes some japanese heroes like Kamen Rider and Metal Heroes an example being PS2's Kamen Rider Seigi no Keifu which is a pretty nice RE / Onimusha 1 clone.
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>>284120 >>284121 I should start reading these.
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>>283672 >Champions Online. That shit used to be fun then Craptic put a troon brony that is into gore ( I shit you not ) in charge of game design and everything became a fucking grind and all the new events had to be grim dark. So all the crazy fuckers that used to hold costume contests or run TT ( a raid of sorts) with randoms just all fucking left on mass. Game is now a ghost town and that is a fucking crime against gaming because CO had the best crazy bastards of any mmo.
>>284266 >Craptic put a troon brony that is into gore ( I shit you not ) in charge of game design and everything became a fucking grind and all the new events had to be grim dark. I'm sorry to hear that anon. I was hoping that something by the City of Heroes/Villains would end up good but I guess the California virus gets them all by the end. Shame it had to go like that instead of embracing the cheesy fuckery the tie-in comics of CoH had and passed as srs biznz
>>284130 >>284195 If you're looking for existing licenses, the go-to answers are things like... >The Amazing Spider-Man vs The Kingpin on Sega CD Personally, I've never been able to enjoy any of the 2D Spider-Man games, but this one is the best one by virtue of having an awesome theme song, since it's on Sega CD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHOd6yqhkd8 >Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2: Enter Electro on PS1/Dreamcast They're overshadowed by the later Spider-Man 2, because they're not open world, but they're excellent. Same devs and basic gameplay, but with more deliberate level design, and without the swinging mechanics that everyone loves. Still great. >Spider-Man on PS2/Gamecube/Xbox Basically the sequel to Enter Electro but the story is based on the movie. Gameplay is what you'd expect from a next gen version of the previous games, which is to say it's great. 100% unlockable is a playable Green Goblin with his own complete moveset, including flying the goblin glider instead of swinging and climbing, and using pumpkin bombs and stuff. He also has his own story where you play as Harry trying to figure out what happened to his dad, and though you do the same levels as Spidey, enemies have different dialogue to reflect the new story. Think how Knuckles is his own story in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but with actual dialogue to make it more obvious. >Spider-Man 2 on PS2/Gamecube/Xbox The famous one everyone likes. It was open world and webs attached to buildings when swinging, which felt very good, with a good acrobatic system that made movement inherently fun. Missions are mostly simple and I don't think anyone cares about them much, but just moving is fun, which makes the whole game fun. That's what all games should do. >Ultimate Spider-Man The only one after Spider-Man 2 that people seem to actually respect as a proper sequel, even though story-wise it isn't (again like how Spider-Man on PS2 is basically Spider-Man PS1 3). The graphics look nicer than any other, IMO, you can play as Venom, and the game was originally made to be canon to the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, which is cool if you like those (and Ultimate Spider-Man, at the time, was a great series and perfect for newbies, so I recommend it). Later they just made a comic adaptation of it which superseded it as canon, but still. It's Spider-Man 2 but you can play as Venom and it has more (well done) cartoony graphics. >Spider-Man 3 Everyone hated on this game at the time and I never got why. It's basically Spider-Man 2 with a bigger world and early PS3 graphics. Maybe not as polished, and I get if you don't like it as much as 2, but still good. Also you could play as the Goblin again, but it wasn't as good as previously, and I think it was DLC, which is bullshit. Came free on the special edition, but I forget if it was on disc or not. After that they did some shit nobody cares about, then Shattered Dimensions, moving away from the open world stuff, but I never felt it was as good as the previous linear 3D games anyway. And sometimes they released a game that was open world again and acted like it was a big deal, as if they never did it before. They're all okay, but I don't see why any of them would be worth playing over Spider-Man 3, which already is past the peak of the series. And the PS4 game is just more of the same, but with walking sections where you play as Mary Jane (a reporter now, because they got Spider-Man confused with Superman or something) and Miles Morales, so basically they ruined the game on purpose. Also, the Batman: Arkham games are good and the complaints about them seem to stem largely from people who never played them and are regurgitating false e-celeb arguments they got online, sour grapes from people who didn't like the Windows port of Arkham Knight (because a bad port means the other versions are bad too, apparently), or people who again didn't play them but don't like that shitty games like Assassin's Creed copied them (even though Assassin's Creed was shit from day one, well before Batman was out).
>>284439 Don't forget Web of Shadows.
>>283745 First light is not really dlc, it had a physical release in several countries. >>283767 >infamous second son >pozz No, the main character is supposedly a native american yet he looks white as fuck, the villain is a woman like you said and the game doesn't bother to paint the purple haired goblina that stars in the dlc in a good light, the protagonist himself calls her out on her bullshit when she explains the motivation behind her killings (became a junkie, killed her brother over drugs, now she kills drug dealers), dude flat out says no one shoved drugs down her throat nor forced her at gunpoint to kill her brother. There's also this one part in the game where you're chasing her and find her hideout, and delsin says the killer has to be a woman because the shoes and underwear left there are tiny, this kind of shit obviously wouldn't fly in troonmerica 2021.
>>284247 I tried to read those online, and either pages were missing, or the pacing is all over the place. It went from a college girl and the Goddess Athena fusing together, to fighting egyptian gods, to fighting ninjas and egyptian gods with no scene presentation in just three issues. Story goes faster than Sonic on cocaine.
>>283672 Obligatory. >>283903 Apparently some of the developers that worked on Captain Rainbow also worked on the Tingle spinoff games, that's why they've got some weird atmosphere.
Pic related is what I wish we'd have gotten a game out of some mad lads who do pc gaymes in Japan. Wish the Undefeated dudes would have made a joke game about it at least. >>284891 I feel deep shame that I forgot to add that.
>>284541 I barely remember Second Son, but I thought the native american tribe adopted him or something?
>>284915 They had character shill videos bragging about Delsin Rowe being part of the Akomish Tribe and they consulted experts and some bullshit like that, when you just see some brown tanned-skinned version of Troy Baker and Travis Willingham.
>>284915 >>284918 They did the same shit with Tommy from Prey, they are supposedly not "pure" natives aka either mommy or daddy were hwite. The old woman that takes care of both Rowe brothers, named Bettsy, is a proper native but she's old enough to be their grandma so it also serves as kind of the link between them and the tribe or something.
>>284541 >First light is not really dlc, it had a physical release in several countries. I called it "standalone DLC" because it's not a full game, it's the same city as previously, with pretty much the same (or some of the same) powers, but new tasks to do with them. Getting a physical release is good, but it's still basically standalone DLC. >this kind of shit obviously wouldn't fly in troonmerica 2021. Well yeah, but all I'm saying is that it was moving in that direction. A lot of things I love, in retrospect, were moving in this direction, and I tolerated and even loved them for years, but I can still see what happened. Coco Bandicoot is best waifu, but she is still just the PC replacement for Tawna, and ultimately lead down the cultural path that lead to Tranny Tawna in Crash 4. But yes, I did and do still recommend Second Son, and even First Light, which I was actually very impressed with given it was always advertised and priced as standalone DLC. They're not as good as 2, but they're better than 1, and First Light is a hell of a lot better than that vampire (standalone?) DLC that came out after InFamous 2. >>284915 I'm pretty sure nothing like that is actually said in the game. But just like in real life, having aboriginal ancestry means nothing to modern people except a false sense of entitlement for free gibs. Delsin is still just a Seattle hipster and doesn't act any different or anything. Of course if he did, it would be racist.
>>284130 The marvel ultimate alliance games were good. First one on ps2 and the second one is on ps1 and ps2. The 3rd one for the switch is different from the others but still fun to play alone or with a friend. Lots of challenges, characters and moves that can clash with eachother to fuck everything up. I was VERY surprised by it.
>>285106 >the second one is on ps1 and ps2 I'm retarded, ps2 and ps3.
>>283672 >Prototype Looks fun to be an edgy polyp, but the PC ports are abysmal for my current year toaster.
>>284266 Was a beta tester for CO. Shit still hurts how they fucked it all up.
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>>284120 >Are her comics any good? They are just bland. Protagonist is a college aged girl who gets gifted power of Athena. Athena is some otherworthly demigodess from a world or dimension loosely based on Greek, Egyptian, and other mythologies. Her powers set is just a flying brick with some magical abilities she mainly uses to power up allies. Bad guys are superpowered criminals and demigods with ties to Athena who are trying to gather magical artifacts hidden around Earth to grow more powerful. Comic got a lot of money on crowdfunding platforms mainly due to backlash against Marvel's heavy push towards pozz. >>284907 >Powergirl and Supergirl >Not Powergirl and Terra Japs have some catching up to do. Palimotti and Conner PG is one of the rare few decent cape comics.
>>285384 Yes, but Powergirl and Supergirl allow for multiversal doppelganger lesbians, which is okay, because it's technically not gay and is just masturbation.
>>285185 The game got released on PC in 2009. How bad is your toaster?
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>>285401 It's a Ryzen 7 1700 + an RX 580, but the game crashes every time when I even start the program.
>>283672 >Prototype >game where you play what is basically the Thing >superhero game Where's the hero part? You're essentially a horror movie monster.
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>>285429 The Thing is a superhero, anon.
>>285429 I would say it would still count as it is a game about a super villain. >>285430 They did not mean that Thing you fucking spaz.
>>285106 >>285108 I think the two got rereleased on pc and newer consoles but I heard there were some drawbacks to them, not sure what in general was changed really.
Is Untouchable ever going to get a followup? It was so promising. >>285106 How odd, I always thought Ultimate Alliance 3 was that shitty square enix game that bombed recently.
>>296358 >How odd, I always thought Ultimate Alliance 3 was that shitty square enix game that bombed recently.
>>296373 Give the guy a break, both have the Avengers and both of them use beloved interpretations of those characters from other media. >MUA3 uses the old cartoons and Avengers Asemble as the base <Avengers uses discount look-alikes to the Marlel films as a vehicle for Kamala Khan Each fanbase got exactly what they deserved with those games.
>>291711 PC re-release doesn't have modding support, which, by the way, the modding on the original version of MUA has such an amazing scene. They've managed to get a fully functioning character slot extender working, which means you can jam as many capes as you'd like <to a degree> without replacing existing characters
>>291711 Yeah the first game is kind of a clusterfuck, Wii, PSP and PS2 have an exclusive character each, which PS3 and 360 don't have, however the 360 got a "gold" release with 8 new characters and a new campaign (featuring galactus) that the others don't have. The devs themselves acknowledged how much of a mess this was so they remastered the game for PS4, which has the gold additions plus the PSP character, but it still lacks the PS2 and Wii ones. And to top it off the 360 gold release is hard to find AND expensive due to having all the DLC on disc+said new additions, while the PS4 remaster can't be bought anymore due to licensing (and never got a physical release). So basically you need either a 360 or PS4 with custom firmware in order to pirate, that or just settle for the inferior PC release. >>296423 MUA3 uses characters from just about every setting; nick fury is the nigger from the movies, the avengers seem to come from the 2010 cartoon, spider-man is from the 2018 game, star lord and his pals are from the comics, venom is from the fucking web of shadows game, blade is also from the movies, spider-nog and spider-shaved sidecut are from the spider-verse movie, psylocke has the design from the marvel VS games etc.
>>296591 >an exclusive character each It was the trend at the time from Activision to get you to triple dip at times, mostly used as a way to excuse the port to inferior hardware. Most of the time it wasn't worth it but MUA1 on the PSP was a fine enough port on its own thankfully and so was the Justice League game of that era and some of the characters were quite welcome only got the Justice League game on PSP just to play with the Superwaifu As for how one's gonna pirate, you said it; it's a mess but thankfully like >>296502 mentioned, for MUA1 there's a nice mod scene to make a proper "Ultimate edition". >MUA3 uses characters from just about every setting; nick fury is the nigger from the movies, the avengers seem to come from the 2010 cartoon, spider-man is from the 2018 game, star lord and his pals are from the comics, venom is from the fucking web of shadows game, blade is also from the movies, spider-nog and spider-shaved sidecut are from the spider-verse movie, psylocke has the design from the marvel VS games etc. And more than you think : >Nigger Fury is actually the same VA and character from the Ultimate Spider-man cartoon >Blade is actually modeled and voiced from the Marvel Anime series >Kamala uses her english VA from her Avengers Anime appearance and moveset >So does Carol Danvers and even has the same VA as well >The cast of X-Men looks like the 90s X-Men but has the entire cast of Wolverine and the X-Men resent on account of the old cast retiring and Cyclops' actor passing away a few years ago It's a fucking wild ride. Also : MARVEL ULTIMATE ALLIANCE 4 NEVER EVER!
>>297053 >MUA3 pulls from every corner of Marvel Its as if Nintendo and KT decided it is better to cater to ALL the fans instead of a tiny retarded sub set.
>>297057 It wasn't that hard anyways, nips love the 90s cartoon, loved PS4-man,loved Wolverine and the X-Men, Avengers Assemble, MvC and they made the Marvel Anime with quite a bit of love, even allowing Quesadilla to oversee them, which should tell you something, given how much of a fucknut that man is. And then they added things that Marvel told them : Guardians, the Marvels, Spiderpeople etc so they took from the sources they liked : their anime, the Spiderverse etc. The few times they were stumped were with Elsa Bloodstone and I believe the Inhumans. Heck, there was an interview I think, were Hayashi and Koinuma yes, THAT Yosuke Hayashi mentioned how Marvel gave them the first draft and KT said that if the X-Men aren't in the game, the contract is void and Nintendo backed them up. So of course Activision isn't gonna have them release a MUA4, releasing fun products, with proper game modes and actually good DLCs isn't part of their modus operandi nor is Marvel happy about how little SJW-isms are in the game. Why do you think they keep sinking money in SE's Avengers? Why do you think the initial game was pulled from SE's contract but Marvel found a loophole via Crystal Dynamics&Eidos, just so they could have access to that sweet SE money?
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>>285414 I had a pretty good time with the full superhero shit in Saints Row IV when it was out for free even though it obviously made vehicles pointless but to punt around.
>>297057 Was it published/funded by Nintendo? because if not I cannot see why they wouldn't release it on PC and give us a decent marvel superhero game(besides the lego one) on the platform. Fuck me not even Ultimate Destruction is on PC(yeah Prototype's close enough but still)
>>297082 >Was it published/funded by Nintendo? Yes. Nintendo basically asked Marvel if they can have the license from Activision and they paid for it.
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>>297082 Yup Nintendo went after the MUA3 license. And it sold decent enough numbers compared to it's budget so there is a good chance the Nintendo/KT version of Marvel will get another entry.
>>297221 >And it sold decent enough numbers compared to it's budget And that was before the DLC, which drew a fair number of people in with the X-Men and F4 one. The Marvel Knights DLC was sadly ignored at first despite Morbius, Blade and Moon Knight being surprisingly good. However, you're using logic and following the money instead of thinking like Marvel, so unless Marvel and Disney somehow decide that money >>>>> agenda, I don't see it happening, especially when KT and Nintendo mouthed them off regarding the "No X-Men" rule that was in effect when the game was first announced. On the other hand though, maybe things aren't too bad, Nintendo seems to be picking up superhero licenses again, they got the exclusive deal for Lauren Faust's human ponies, the Supergirls stuff. Granted they got fucking Toybox to develop it, so there's that... There's a funny story regarding the development of MUA3, so take it with a grain of salt : the game has a few designers on board, the concept artists are from either Marvel or former western devs, to give the nips a clear visual of what the superheroes should look like in the game. Apparently one of them mouthed of to the 3D modelers and artists at KT that >We don't want you to disrespect our heroes and balloon their tits like you do for your fighting games so the Tecmo designer told him >That's absolutely fair. We won't touch the characters breasts at all <All the characters in the game and the art from the nips somehow has a fatter ass than the concepts drawn from the westerners Said artist is said to be the guy who drew the Fire Emblem Warriors new outfits and was responsible for the initial designs of the twins. You know the ones : where both were blue haired twins and had an ax and a lance as weapons.
>>297089 >>297221 Ah, shame. I'd love to play it at some point and I have no idea how well it emulates. >>297247 >>We don't want you to disrespect our heroes and balloon their tits like you do for your fighting games >so the Tecmo designer told him >>That's absolutely fair. We won't touch the characters breasts at all <All the characters in the game and the art from the nips somehow has a fatter ass than the concepts drawn from the westerners That's hilarious but I doubt anyone involved in that story would actually say it in public were it real.
>>297267 I'm pretty sure Switch emulation is the absolute best out of this gen. I think it's the multiplatform switch titles that bork during the emulation but I'm not 100% certain. >That's hilarious but I doubt anyone involved in that story would actually say it in public were it real. Undoubedtly, but it was going around nip sites at the time as a joke, so maybe there's some crediblity nip devs do go on imageboards a lot more than western ones after all. Then again, the way nips retell events in a dry manner often makes it difficult to see if they're sarcastic or if it's true unless it's something as absurd as the time Kojima was telling Suda about how he wanted Johnny to take a nervous shit while Raiden was shimming below him, instead of just a piss but Konami stopped him.
More like league of unity assets
>>308881 >super speed animation is just running scaled up a hundred times to the point where it looks choppy due to the framerate Brilliant.
>>297247 For those who keep posting those "western vs Japanese design" pics, this is why people prefer Japanese design.
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>>308943 The Japanese never forgot what comics are about. Funny people with dumb powers fighting evil. Thats all people want to see when they pick up a comic book. The American comic industry forgot this important fact.
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>>308881 wtf it looks like that mobile sniper ad. And that bloom and chromatic abberation. How the fuck is this raising millions?
How the fuck does champions Online still function with like only 2 active devs? The fuck is wrong with that company? The fuck is wrong with the people still playing it? The fuck is wrong with anyone still whaling for that shit? I know they bought the Champions PnP IP when Marvel fucked em over and bailed out halfway into thheir "Marvel Online". but shit i would rather see that game closed down than the sorry shit it is now.
>>283936 I enjoyed playing 1 and 2 on my modded PS3. >>285431 >they
>>309170 >How the fuck is this raising millions? Sex, sales.
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>>308881 >>309170 Shameless fanservice trying to cover up for what is pretty obviously a shitty game is very amusing to me.
>>308881 According to a review, the character creation has 11 boob sliders and 7 butt sliders, and even PUSSY sliders, because there's also a 30$ nude patch.
>>309099 In general, yeah. It's way more nuanced, though. Customer orientation is a factor, to a point editors will clash with artists/writers to put in shit that's popular over shit that makes sense: see also Hitsugaya getting face time in Bleach, Android 17 & 18, Sailor Senshi not dying in the first arc permanently, Sesshoumaru, etc. Titles live & die on popularity. They are also self-contained stories, and all crossover efforts are left entirely to ad promotionals and public venue shit, like character spots in various mobage shit or like in Phantasy Star Online—the most extreme case is Super Heroine Chronicle & the Spuer Robot Wars franchise. There's also the work ethic to consider. It takes a figurative month for western artists to storyboard, sketch a draft, correct & stencil, ink, finish, color, bubble, script, and polish something like a 15pg issue. Japan will have 1/3 to double the page count in a week's time because mangaka by and large are chained to their desks (except for rockstars like Berserk's author, or the one who does HunterxHunter who basically takes whole holidays to go fuck his hot Sailor Moon wife nonstop). Basically East dominates west because their stories actually END instead of dragging on endlessly, their work ethic is insanely larger, they cultivate and cater to their fandoms (and when they don't, there's book burnings—never forget The Sacred Blacksmith, Haruhi, and Kannagi), and have zero problems creating and testing new IP as opposed to throwing tokens into familiar outfits and pretending what was a comic identity can now just be a hand-me-down label. >>308881 Isn't this game a bot mining network?
I looked up some gameplay and wow it actually looks like shit >>309271 Probably. >>309268 Now that's the future of character creation.
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>>309268 >PUSSY sliders >PUSSY Finally, the game to rival the greatest MMO of all time.
>>309306 Fuck me, that looks so trashy and tacky. I get liking boobs and beautifull women, I even get and like pandering to some extent. But when you go from "game with porn bundled" to "porn with game bundled", you've made a serious fucking mistake.
>>283876 How do you call yourself a professional artists when you can't even draw tits right? Why do they look like balls with little to no gravity applied to em?
>>309376 Professional artists like fake tits too sometimes, anon.
>>309306 >made with the Unreal engine 4 >looks like a Unity Asset flip
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>>309376 Are you the same type of fag who complains about the superior taste of lemon tits?
>>309271 >It takes a figurative month for western artists to storyboard, sketch a draft, correct & stencil, ink, finish, color, bubble, script, and polish something like a 15pg issue. Japan will have 1/3 to double the page count in a week's time because mangaka by and large are chained to their desks (except for rockstars like Berserk's author, or the one who does HunterxHunter who basically takes whole holidays to go fuck his hot Sailor Moon wife nonstop). Note that usually the part that slows everything down in the west is 'pencils,' which is the basic process of drawing the pages, but not inking them. Scripts are usually done by a different person, inks are usually done by a different person, and lettering is usually done by a different person. All of those people are expected to produce more than one issue per month. But the penciller is expected to take about one month. Also, sometimes layouts are done by a different guy as well. That's rarer, but it's not uncommon, so the penciller isn't even coming up with the design of the pages, he's just taking very rough sketches (equivalent to storyboards) and making them look nice. Then another guy, the inker, is supposed to make them look nicer (but it isn't uncommon for the inker to actually fuck them up. And then sometimes the colorists and letterers fuck things up too). Also, even today comics are still usually about 22 pages long. They used to be much longer, but got down to like 25 pages by the '70s, and have lost a couple extra pages since. But 15 is underselling. Note that there are guys like Jack Kirby. Kirby was able script and draw four or five issues per month. However, I'm pretty sure he still didn't do inks, colors, or letters by himself usually. But he did have consistent output of drawing like 100 pages per month, which is pretty damn impressive, especially since his art is considered some of the greatest in the business. He's generally considered the greatest of all time, though, (not just due to his drawing ability, but his overall skill at producing good comics) and few come anywhere close to matching him. Manga, meanwhile, usually also has assistants who sometimes draw everything except for the main characters in a scene. Color is not usually expected, and page counts are typically lower. Though it's hard to judge exactly since many manga release weekly rather than monthly, which much shorter page counts. British comics used to come bi-weekly as a rule, and thus would need twice as much content. While they filled a lot of that extra content with things like reprints or by mashing two series together into an anthology series, they still did frequently need new original material, and a lot of times it actually looked better due to better printing technology being used in British comics of the time compared to American comics of the time. A famous example is Marvel's original Transformers series from the '80s, where Britain's "filler" stories were both written and drawn so much better than the American stories that the main writer for them got hired to just write the main American series as well, and basically became the main Transformers writer to this day. (Of course, it's still a toy commercial, so there's a lot of awful shit not written by him too.) >Basically East dominates west because their stories actually END instead of dragging on endlessly I never thought this claim held any water considering many of the most successful anime and manga have been running for decades. There are many successful shorter ones, but there are many successful shorter western comics as well. Watchmen being successful does not mean that we should pretend Batman isn't insanely popular. Death Note being successful doesn't mean that we should pretend Dragon Ball or One Piece or Naruto isn't insanely popular. And yes, Dragon Ball ended eventually but I don't think anyone likes it because of the ending. In fact, everyone just argues it should have ended earlier. Then it came back. You're correct that they cater more to their fandoms. However, that's a very recent problem with comics. For a long time, the problem was that they catered too hard to their fandoms, and not to casuals. I suppose it depends on how you define fandoms. Since the '80s, comics have been mega autistic due to catering to hardcore fans, to the degree that a casual simply cannot understand what is happening in a random comic without reading reams of information from other comics first, and many of those other comics will all face the same problem. This naturally resulted in the fanbase shrinking. Casuals are a necessary evil. And it's not like many would say comics from the '70s are bad. They still feel very modern. Just they aren't so autistic that a casual can't understand them. However, the problem now is that they actively scorn the fanbase and they still don't cater to casuals. Now they cater to a tiny cult that hates the material that both fans and casuals love. But this really is a thing that only happened in the last few years.
>and have zero problems creating and testing new IP as opposed to throwing tokens into familiar outfits and pretending what was a comic identity can now just be a hand-me-down label. This is a major factor. Part of the issue is that there have been few successful characters at all in the last several decades, and it probably has to do with casuals not reading comics in that same time frame, and with characters' histories and appeal being so autistic that they're hard to adapt. Deadpool is probably the latest character that casuals like, and he is relatively simple, he's an X-Men related assassin who is wacky. There is more to him in the comics but they don't adapt that. Who are the other successful comics characters since the late '80s? Booster Gold is a fan favorite, but not if you remove all of his connection to the Justice League International and Blue Beetle. Now, I'm autistic enough to think I could make a JLI adaptation that wouldn't be too confusing to casuals, but you still need to explain who Green Lantern is, and why the guy on the JLI is the backup Green Lantern. Casuals might be at that point now, but for a long time, nobody knew who the fuck Green Lantern was. Also, Booster Gold is related specifically to the third Blue Beetle. You can skip the first one, but the second one is heavily important to the third one's backstory. And then the comics don't use him anymore, they use his token minority replacement, who would actually qualify as one of the more successful characters since he was introduced 15 years ago and there was a good faith effort shown to respect the previous version (and his death made Booster Gold stories better), but now good luck explaining the fourth Blue Beetle properly in an adaptation without removing a lot of the stuff that makes him interesting, which is again connections to previous Blue Beetles and Booster Gold. Who else is sort of successful? Damian Wayne? The fifth Robin? You can skip the fourth Robin, the girl one that was only Robin for like a month, but if you remove the other Robins, Damian loses a lot of what made him interesting. In adaptations they always skip the bit where he didn't really become Robin until Batman died and the original Robin became Batman. That's essential to both of their characters, and without it, Damian isn't very interesting. Same for if you don't have Jason Todd, the second Robin, and show the parallels between he and Damian. There was also the rivalry between Damian and Tim Drake, the third Robin. Again, removing that makes Damian significantly less interesting (though I'd argue that factor is less important than the ones I mentioned before it). Adapting Damian Wayne is hard because since well before he was created, comics have been too autistic, and his appeal is too autistic to adapt easily. And yes, there's the modern issue of just giving some random minority the costume of an old beloved character. This has actually happened for decades, but it used to be done with more respect, and not to many major characters. I mentioned Blue Beetle, but he was always a D-lister. It happened to The Star Spangled Kid (getting replaced with Stargirl) but nobody ever gave a fuck about him. It happened to Wildcat, but then I've seen later issues where the original old man Wildcat was back, and I don't even know what happened to his latina replacement from the '80s. It happened to Dr. Light, where he got replaced with an asian woman who was a good guy, but the original Dr. Light was a D-list villain to begin with, and he stuck around doing his own villain stuff, eventually getting bumped up to B-list when they traded his light-themed villainy for rape-themed villainy. It also happened with The Question shortly after Blue Beetle, but The Question had a good death so people were okay with it, and his replacement still wasn't successful and basically faded away and now DC just doesn't know what to do with The Question. Last I saw, after Flashpoint The Question was some sort of immortal spirit or something. Probably not at all related to previous versions beyond name and costume. On the other hand, you have times when the label is handed down from one generation to the next, and it works, like with The Flash. But those aren't just tokens that disrespect the previous versions. When they tried to reboot the third Flash, Wally West, and make him a black kid, it went so badly that they said the original Wally West still existed, and this black kid was just his cousin also named Wally. Also, let's not pretend that Japanese stuff doesn't do the "hand-me-down label" thing constantly. There are like 50 different Ultramans. That said, don't let that make you think that I'm not saying comics are fucked. They are.
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>>309402 That's probably because it is made in Unity anon. >>309470 >Note that usually the part that slows everything down in the west is 'pencils,' which is the basic process of drawing the pages, but not inking them. Scripts are usually done by a different person, inks are usually done by a different person, and lettering is usually done by a different person. But that's mostly american comics and it was mostly capeshit that did that. Yuronigger comics never suffered from it, at least not int their golden age. Then again, apart from monthly disney comics, most yurobooks didn't exactly have strict schedules with a month as their deadline, so that probably helped a bit. >Manga, meanwhile, usually also has assistants who sometimes draw everything except for the main characters in a scene. Color is not usually expected, and page counts are typically lower. Though it's hard to judge exactly since many manga release weekly rather than monthly, which much shorter page counts. Also very true. Usually, the artist makes templates before hand and has the assistants just "copy paste" them on the pages on which he draws, when the backgrounds are bland are meant to be bland as fuck. Assistant honestly mostly do light inking since it's stressfull, before the finishing touches and they touch up on backgrounds, unless you have some Kentaro Miura-tier autism with details when it's 100% the creator because nobody can keep up with them.
>>309493 >But that's mostly american comics and it was mostly capeshit that did that. Yeah, I thought I was clear that I was talking about American stuff. European stuff is a whole different industry, and I did briefly mention UK comics only to show how they were different. I'd go so far as to argue that the quality of the art in American comics is typically higher than manga, if we remove the last few years as an outlier. American comics are also typically printed on larger paper, and it seems like the drawings are a more significant aspect of them. However, this does change over time. Golden Age comics frequently did not have very detailed art, though attention was paid to things like character design. Colors in American comics suffered from poor printing until the '90s, when digital coloring became the norm, and even then it took some time for artists to get used to it. Many times if you look at black and white reprints of older comics, they look much better than the color versions. Sometimes they also do reprints with the colors re-done to various degrees. Sometimes they're just re-printed with modern techniques, which always looks a lot better. The same colors with the same intent, but without the primitive technology originally used to color them. You also have some cases where they straight up re-color from scratch, though, and while sometimes they're fine, sometimes it's weird. The colors can be much more varied and detailed this way, but the pages weren't originally intended for those colors, and sometimes the new colorists just fuck up. But examples like this are rare.
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>>309503 I get that but UK comics was a kind of different beast from the rest of the euro comics as well, it was closer to being its own thing. Italians, spaniards and franco-belgians were mostly uniform in their influence of eurocomics. >I'd go so far as to argue that the quality of the art in American comics is typically higher than manga, if we remove the last few years as an outlier. More like the opposite. Apart from 2 specific decades depending on the big houses, american comics typically had lower quality art once Japan stopped copying Disney and Uderzo / Herge. It was typically italians and spaniards that had the most fucking amazing art in comics, even if in the Italians case it was mostly for porn, like Manara. Unless you include Argentinian creators as American comic creators despite the most famous ones working on both Europe and USA at times then yes, American comics art was typically higher than manga. At least for me, part of the problem with american comics is that they don't get colours anymore and enough of their capeshit cartoons did get it great, like BTAS but they have since stopped trying to do that and just put people like Hifi to colour Bamham and Superman, when the man's palette and use of warm lighting and shadows is far more fit for sci-fi heroes and sci-fi artists, like Rocafort(who was great with Blond for colours) or having the team of Lean. Hories and Silva. Though I guess that's part of the overall lack of good management and competent chief editors nowadays since they can't even begin to understand good team composition in their creative teams. It doesn't help that a lot of the current senior artists, inkers, pencilers and colourists didn't have many assistants that work today or had assistants but didn't teach them anything, period, which results in talented people these days with no experience or even knowhow at times, fucking up constantly. Say what you will about manga starting goofy and the assistant thing but by learning from an artist and then practising until you find your own style does help a lot. Just look at people like Oda and Hiroyuki Takei, both of whom were assistants Watsuki Nobuhiro of Rurouni Kenshin fame, who was an assistant to Death Note's Takeshi Obata and even had a brief stint in american comics to develop his own style. It's a shame because it just means we won't get cool creative teams like the 70's Thor one or the 70s and 80s Spiderman.
>>308881 I'm almost tempted to try it just to laugh at it.
>>309407 He's got a point. Balloon tits are terrible to look at after a while. >>309470 >I never thought this claim held any water considering many of the most successful anime and manga have been running for decades I think the confusion sets in because you're looking at it from a property/popularity point of view. It's also my fault because I just short-handed my thoughts this morning. Lemme try again. Eastern properties, in this particular topic, have two massive advantages over western properties: linearity and the promise of an ending. With the former, it's insanely easy to get into almost any manga you can think of. Massively long titles (One Piece), or multi-book series (To Love Ru =>TLR Darkness) don't cart the bloat of spinoffs, crossovers, What Ifs/Elseworlds, or clusterfuck continuities so thick that the companies themselves have to cook up events to attempt to wrestle the hydra of their own creation into some semblance of coherency. Someone completely blank on both sides of comics would have an easier time to get into manga than comics. Don't believe me, ask just how many people jumped on Black Panther's books versus people who jumped into Demon Slayer, just to name two examples. Then there's the promise of an end. That doesn't take into account the rather shit endings that come entirely from editor demand because the book's been axed from the popularity polls, and therefore the publication entirely. But most stories on manga print have a beginning, middle, and, most important, a structured end. Despite Sailor Moon's titan-like popularity (despite contrast, she's a global household name, now), her story is told and gets revisited through, at best, retellings, instead of being dragged on endlessly into event after event until it before the aforementioned convoluted continuity hydra. Dragon Ball Super is its own fuckery, but even that has a linear setup and a promise that Toriyama will put an end page on the thing provided he doesn't die, first (at which point Kodansha & Toei will tun it into some unfeeling homonculus). This isn't to shit on the episodic nature of a lot of cape stories—they have their place and they obviously work for many. But again, I point to Black Panther as a textbook example to that method oftentimes serving as its own gatekeeping device. The other irony being no-good shitheads who refuse to dig through that continuity are now given free reign of all those western properties. Which...well, fuck.
>>309847 You're definitely correct that the incredibly autistic continuity makes it hard for new readers to start. I mentioned that's one major problem American comics have had since the late '80s. They did have crossovers decades before that, but they kept them easy to understand. Dragon Ball Super is basically Toriyama slowly handing the reigns to Toyotaro, so he can continue it for decades to come. Yes, the publishers can put a stop to it, but Dragon Ball will probably remain profitable enough for Toyotaro to eventually hand it off to a new guy when he gets too old. Also, Marvel and DC capeshit comics do have endings, then they have sequels. Well, at least they used to. The problem with endings is more a problem of the autistically intertwined continuities. Stories used to be one issue long, or usually less. A story would end, then get a sequel. Now, they're many parts long, and when they do end, the cliffhanger for the next story is so strong that it frequently doesn't feel like an ending at all. But sometimes you do get an ending. But then, due to the complex crossovers, it only makes sense for other characters in other series to react to the ending of the first series. The original Superman died in 2006. But the universe lived on even though his story ended. Also he briefly came back as a zombie in 2009, but so did everyone else. It doesn't count. The point is, Superman's story ended. But people just don't care. They just keep reading past the end, with new characters, because of the crossovers. Superman also got a sort of ending in 1986 when they semi-rebooted and did a "What If" ending of if they didn't reboot. Also, the original Batman died in the '70s. But again, in all of these cases, people just read past the endings. Anyway, I'm autistically digressing. I think there are a lot of manga that people aren't reading for the ending. One Piece might end one day, but the fact that it, currently, is effectively just going on forever, has not stopped it from being enormously popular. By the same token, Superman might end one day, but when it was popular, the fact that it was still going didn't stop it from being popular. People like Batman despite it not having a set end date. People like Naruto even though it (or rather, Boruto, or whatever replaces it) will probably go on forever.
>>309936 >One Piece might end one day, but the fact that it, currently, is effectively just going on forever, has not stopped it from being enormously popular. By the same token, Superman might end one day, but when it was popular, the fact that it was still going didn't stop it from being popular. People like Batman despite it not having a set end date. People like Naruto even though it (or rather, Boruto, or whatever replaces it) will probably go on forever. You DO realize that the American comic industry almost went bust in the 90's, and has only survived this long because of the films, right? Hell, current charts even say that the top 20 best selling comics are all manga.
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>>309936 >>309945 Also, it should be mentioned that people want to read capeshit and manga for different reasons. For capeshit, people pay attention to it less for the characters and story and more for the concept of it. Just look at how, while it started as a joke, you can take any character, throw on the "correct" costume, and they're immediately that "character". Throw a Batman costume on Bugs Bunny, Green Lantern costume on Daffy, give WW to Raven, and so on. And, that's excluding about how Marvel's comic and films have started centering around EVERYONE having their own Iron Man costume. The hero's title is just a name that can be slapped onto anyone and muddies the significance of that character. Batman is a rich billionaire, who trained really really hard, to clean up the streets of the corrupt Gotham City that claimed both of the lives of his parents. Green Lantern (Basing this off of the movie, go ahead and sue me for it as I don't know his comic origins) is a daredevil test pilot for the military who struggles with admitting his fears because he wants to be like his dad, and eventually learns how to push past said fears in order to protect his friends and family from threats bigger than one can imagine. WW is an Amazon who wanted to explore the world outside of her island and fight the people that may seek to conquer it. Iron Man is a rich billionaire, who found his wealth through weapons manufacturing, and decided that there's more good that he can provide for the world than just giving people a new shiny gun they can use. Boom, boom, boom, you have a solid character that you can make a great story around. However, what do people actually care about? That Batman looks cool, that no one gives a shit about Green Lantern, that WW is into bondage, and why doesn't Tony give everyone Iron Man costumes and solve all the world's problems right there? Meanwhile, let's look at the two manga you mentioned. One Piece has Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Nami, Chopper, Robin, Usopp, Franky, and Brook. Each of the characters serves as an irreplaceable component on their ship (Except for Zoro, Robin, and Brook arguably), and each character cannot be replaced by someone completely different. In fact, part of the premise FOR the series is that you have magic fruit that gives people supernatural abilities, and that no two fruits are alike. In fact, this is such an important plot point that there was even a story arc about one of the magical fruits suddenly being rediscovered that allowed people to have the same power as Ace (Luffy's then-recently deceased brother). And, that's into addition to the fact that the entire series centers around the characters all going through their own personal journeys to improve themselves and achieve their dreams. Similar thing with Naruto, a series about a bunch of ninjas in training. In fact, throw this at just about ANY manga compared to modern America capeshit, and you will see that manga treats characters as almost inseparable from their title. One series I can point to that openly displays this is Death Note, where, while each user adopts the title of "Kira", people know that Light is the only TRUE Kira at the end of the day. In fact, going through the manga I've read, there really isn't another series I can point to where the author attempts to replace characters and give them the same title. Possibly Keyman would qualify, but it's a similar mystery and label layout as that of Death Note, that there's only one "true" Keyman, and the rest are imitators of some form. Long story short, American comics are shit because it's all a title and nothing else.
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>>309959 Technically Green Lantern's is a uniform instead of just a costume.
>>309471 >Also, let's not pretend that Japanese stuff doesn't do the "hand-me-down label" thing constantly. There are like 50 different Ultramans. That's not a mantle hand-me-down (in most cases. I don't track all of Ultraman). That's a franchise spinning an almost entirely new story every time. Same with (most of) Kamen Rider, same with Precure and Super Sentai. Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger was about the closest sentai got to a proper crossover. Which isn't to take away from the point you made as it was pretty strong. End of the day, passing the mantle is a tool, and it's one that cape comics like to abuse way too much. Notice no one batted an eye at The Phantom, who has legacy and mantle built in to the story. There will always be The Ghost who Walks. But Batman, despite some stories doing okay, was never meant to be a mantle figure. Batman is Bruce Wayne. It is the very symbol of his dedication, his trauma, his money, and his autism. Hell, most people don't call Terry McGuinese Batman—they call him Terry. And that's not to slam his character, but to emphasize the point. He is Terry McGuiness to people the same way Miles isn't Spider-Man, but Miles Morales (or Ben Reily, for the five of you that can say that name without randomly going into a conniption). All of it is tools of writing and the authors & editors abuse those tools way too damned often. >>309503 >I'd go so far as to argue that the quality of the art in American comics is typically higher than manga Let's not go crazy. Many western artists still struggle with actions in panels. This isn't to give Japan a pass, because many of them tank HARD at that practice, too (Perfect example: Read Magic Knight Rayearth and tell me you can follow any action taking place without a reread two or even three times). But as bad as they can flop, the conveyance of action is till better than a lot of the "dynamic pose" style too many comic artists commit to.
>>310022 >>309959 I see, the problem are similar to both eastern and western industry, but handled somewhat differently with varying degrees of success. Guess at the end its just customers vs companies after all
>>309959 >In fact, going through the manga I've read, there really isn't another series I can point to where the author attempts to replace characters and give them the same title. Possibly Keyman would qualify, but it's a similar mystery and label layout as that of Death Note, that there's only one "true" Keyman, and the rest are imitators of some form. One famous series where the new characters got the title of the previous one, is JoJo's Bizzare Adventure, in which only the main character has the nickname of JoJo. So much so, that in Part 3, even though Dio in Part 1 called Jonathan, JoJo, in Part 3 he referres to him as Jonathan, to Joseph as Joseph and to Jotaro as JoJo, because he was the protagonist of that part. After that in Part 4, 5 and 6 he was simply called Jotaro. This worked so well, that there is no real JoJo, like with Batman as Bruce Wayne, and at most it's the one you liked the most or the one you started with, though I think Jotaro is the most popular one overall, but I don't think there is anybody out there that calls him the only JoJo or the true JoJo
>>309959 >you can take any character, throw on the "correct" costume, and they're immediately that "character" I disagree entirely. I don't have much interest in capeshit, but if you put a new person in an established role and I will give less than zero shits about them. Take the new Spiderman for example: Peter Parker's the only Spiderman for me - I'm not interested in this new kid at all. If you want a new person behind the mask then make a new fucking character.
>>309936 >Also, Marvel and DC capeshit comics do have endings, then they have sequels. Well, at least they used to. The problem with endings is more a problem of the autistically intertwined continuities. Stories used to be one issue long, or usually less. A story would end, then get a sequel. Now, they're many parts long, and when they do end, the cliffhanger for the next story is so strong that it frequently doesn't feel like an ending at all. But sometimes you do get an ending. But then, due to the complex crossovers, it only makes sense for other characters in other series to react to the ending of the first series. The original Superman died in 2006. But the universe lived on even though his story ended. Also he briefly came back as a zombie in 2009, but so did everyone else. It doesn't count. The point is, Superman's story ended. But people just don't care. They just keep reading past the end, with new characters, because of the crossovers. Superman also got a sort of ending in 1986 when they semi-rebooted and did a "What If" ending of if they didn't reboot. Also, the original Batman died in the '70s. But again, in all of these cases, people just read past the endings. BULLSHIT When it was time for comics to "end", it was pretty clear for them to do so. Twice in fact, one for DC and one for Marvel. DC tried to do exactly that with CoIE and then have the new lines be their own new thing for new readers, just like how the animated series got classic stories and retold them in 25-minute episodes before they decided to dwelve into their own territory with Batman Beyond and the JLA series. With Marvel, Onslaught at least tried to provide this and bring a closure so the "Ultimate" line could continue. But like >>309847 said about DB becoming a humonculus of a monster due to Toei, Bandai, Kodanasha and whoever else holds the rights for toys and shit, it'll go on endlessly. And that's what happened in the end. Even when they tried to put and definite end the second time in DC with new52, by giving each and every book a super happy ending just to segway perfectly to 52, the collective autism of the readers, the artists and the editors couldn't fucking let them do it and look what the DCU is now. And let's not forget that due to those kinds of shit, the entire capeshit industry almost went bust TWICE but like >>309945 said, films saved them. >People like Batman despite it not having a set end date. People like Naruto even though it (or rather, Boruto, or whatever replaces it) will probably go on forever. Those are two very different things though. Naruto ENDED, period. Boruto, for all intends and purposes is the creation of other people. Only due to a scandal did Kishimoto return to write the current chapters of Boruto. Naruto's story ended because Kishimoto himself ended it. I'd argue the same shit kinda happened with Dragon Ball so when it comes to manga, it's always easy to call out the IP holders for being greedy cunts and discard those products since it's always obvious when the licenser steps in to make money vs when the mangaka writes a story but in DB's case, Super is Toriyama's child, unfortunately. Batman is different : even when Finger and Kane left, he continued to evolve and grow simply under DC's belt, he was way beyond the artistic merit of two people. Same thing with other super popular heroes like Spider-man. It should also be noted that a reason a lot of franco-belgian titles like Lucky Luke or Asterix, despite still pumping out comics due to Dargaud handing out some of their profitable titles to whoever perg they can find, people shit on them. It's one thing for one of the people who created the characters and comics to die(Goscinny) and the other to keep making comics until they stop and it's another to have those titles go on forever due to publishers and people know that and it shows on sales alone. It's why the only Lucky Luke titles as of now are one-off "gitty" retellings by highly autistic Lucky Luke readers who are still stuck in an era where they thought that grittifying old comical heroes was considered cool and edgy. >>309959 >Also, it should be mentioned that people want to read capeshit and manga for different reasons. For capeshit, people pay attention to it less for the characters and story and more for the concept of it. Just look at how, while it started as a joke, you can take any character, throw on the "correct" costume, and they're immediately that "character". Throw a Batman costume on Bugs Bunny, Green Lantern costume on Daffy, give WW to Raven, and so on. And, that's excluding about how Marvel's comic and films have started centering around EVERYONE having their own Iron Man costume. The hero's title is just a name that can be slapped onto anyone and muddies the significance of that character. That is also very true, unfortunately. >>309471 >Also, let's not pretend that Japanese stuff doesn't do the "hand-me-down label" thing constantly. There are like 50 different Ultramans. I get where you're going with this but even the very first fucking Ultraman told you, the viewer, that his name isn't "Ultraman" it's a title. He was a space cop and people from his species gain the title of "Ultra(man)" when they take on a job at the Space Garisson. Same shit with Kamen Rider until they swapped continuities. It also helps that Ultra and Rider had their original creators work on them until their deaths before they got passed to their companies and their relatives who chose to work on them. It's far closer to a Tolkien situation than capeshit itself. The one that does fit the capeshit mantle on the other hand is Toei's proper creations, the current Super Sentai and the Metal Heroes that, surprisingly, do fit the mold more than Ultra or Rider.
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>All these paragraphs of autism /co/ needs your dedication Anyways, not specifically a superhero game, I always wanted a Kim Possible video game. It would have different levels with get into the secret lab, avoid being detected stealth, standard fight mechanics, most importantly fun silly plot line with everyday sheninagans and cheesy villains. Then I realized there is no games like this at all. Kim Possible game is all but dream (it should have been made in 2000s) but any non-superpowered character can have this kind of game.
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>>310123 >kim's midriff
>>310123 What about this game?
>>310123 >/co/ needs your dedication I gave up on comics two decades ago, and television 15 years ago. All you're hearing from me are the grumblings of an aged hermit. But you are spot-on for a Kim Possible game—platforming, mystery or even a ARPG with a VN format. That would have made for fun times. Such a shame Disney is cancer, now.
>>310123 >I always wanted a Kim Possible video game Three for the GBA, two for the DS, and one for the PS2.
>>309459 >>309407 >liking fake tiddies
>>310449 Man, kim was an actually likeable girls show protagonist.
>>310450 Just assume they're mid-bounce
>>310455 Zero standards
>tfw have an idea for a fuckhuge hero game >no desire to code or anything else I'm a fucking useless ideaguy.
>>309945 I don't see what your post has to do with the bit you're quoting, unless you're disagreeing with the claim that Batman will probably go on forever, which wasn't a claim directly made in the quote. The quote was refuting the argument that having a set ending (even if the audience doesn't know it) makes things significantly more popular. Claiming that Batman won't last forever is actually a better argument against that claim, since it will have an ending, and probably sooner rather than later. Also, the American comic industry has been fucked since the '90s for reasons well beyond artistic ones. That's not to say they haven't had artistic problems, like the autism making it hard for readers, especially new readers, to follow, or SJWs recently deliberately trying to kill the industry. However, the crash in the '90s had more to do with a speculator bubble resulting in artificially inflated success, which lead to a bunch of investments, not just in collecting comics, but in opening stores, and Marvel creating their own distributing division, which meant that when the bubble burst, it caused a lot of damage, including putting Marvel into bankruptcy and Diamond Comics Distributors being left as an effective monopoly over the entire industry, which only changed in the last year due to the Wuhan Virus, when it was already too late to save the industry anyway. Additionally, that bubble helped to encourage the move to selling in specialty shops more than in regular stores where normalfags would actually see the products, and Diamond then was incentivized to keep things that way since specialty shops couldn't return unsold copies, decreasing Diamond's risk significantly. This resulted in effectively no new readers ever appearing, since nobody is going to go into a comic shop to buy comics unless they already like comics. By contrast, Archie (and other comics they published, like Sonic the Hedgehog) continued to sell in places like grocery stores (because Archie wasn't distributed by Diamond) and their sales are so much higher than every other company that they basically aren't even comparable. Archie still makes a lot of money, somehow. However, Archie is still fucked long term obviously since print in general is dying, and magazines are especially dying. Comics are fundamentally magazines, and it's ridiculous that these companies expect them to do better than the rest of the magazine industry, when other magazines are sold in stores that people actually go to. They're also too stupid to do proper online distribution, as they sell individual issues instead of subscriptions, and the issues are priced the same as physical. When they do subscription services, for some reason, they don't include every comic they have the rights to, even though the services are set up by the companies that own all the rights, and should be able to put almost every issue ever published, which is obviously what people want, since nobody wants to read a 1000 issue long series, but have random stretches of issues missing. Also, the prices are too high because they're the same as physical, and physical prices are too high because the move to specialty shops and abandonment of the casual audience has left the industry relying on a steadily shrinking number of whales, so the whales need to keep paying more and more to keep the industry afloat, but that only means that it becomes even less appealing to regular people, because regular people know it's retarded to pay $5 for like 23 pages that take you five minutes to read because the style is so light on both dialogue and drawn detail.
>>309959 >For capeshit, people pay attention to it less for the characters and story and more for the concept of it. Just look at how, while it started as a joke, you can take any character, throw on the "correct" costume, and they're immediately that "character". This isn't true. It's what SJWs want to believe, but they're wrong, and that's why their characters keep failing. There have been times when a new character successfully took the mantle from an old character, but it's rare, and it's usually with characters who were failing in the first place, and the stories are about how it's hard for the new guy to live up to his role model. When they killed Barry Allen and Wally West became the new Flash, it was after 25 years of Wally West being Kid Flash, the sidekick, and it was a logical move. Also Flash wasn't selling very well and was likely to get cancelled anyway, which is why they felt comfortable shaking things up. Then the next ten years of Flash stories were about how Wally didn't feel like he was the "real" Flash, and was just trying to live up to Barry. A few years later, Green Lantern wasn't selling very well, and they were gonna cancel it, but instead they had him become a villain and a new guy became the new Green Lantern, but this was their attempt to effectively reboot a failing series. Still, the next ten years of stories were about how the new guy, Kyle Rayner, couldn't live up to Hal Jordan. Then Hal Jordan came back (but Kyle stuck around too). Then a few years after that, Barry Allen came back, even though by that point people liked Wally West as Flash. But Barry Allen is The Flash, despite Wally being called The Flash for just as long as him. But it just wasn't the same. Your examples are uninformed. Green Lantern as a concept is that "Green Lanterns" are a force of space cops. However, "THE" Green Lantern is Hal Jordan. "Iron Spider" is Spider-Man in a costume he wore for a specific story arc. Winter Soldier is Bucky, Captain America's old sidekick. Bucky briefly got the title of Captain America, but he wasn't "THE" Captain America. Iron Patriot is The Green Goblin wearing an Iron Man suit, and I know they changed him in the movie, but that is just an entirely different character to anyone who cares. There have been arcs where other people start calling themselves Batman, and even though people liked it when the original Robin grew up and became Batman, he still wasn't "the" Batman. If they made a movie where Dick Grayson, or Jean-Paul Valley, or Commissioner Gordon, was Batman, without doing the actual story where the premise is that Bruce Wayne is temporarily indisposed, then people would not go for it. Marvel tried to do a movie where they called Miles Morales Spider-Man, but they had to change the story significantly from the comics to include Peter Parker near Miles' origin story as well, and even then, nobody thinks of Miles as Spider-Man. Miles Morales is Miles Morales, a guy who has similar costume and powers to Spider-Man. Spider-Man is Spider-Man, and his real name is Peter Parker. >However, what do people actually care about? That Batman looks cool, I strongly disagree that that's all people care about. You're right that casuals don't give a flying fuck about Green Lantern or Wonder Woman, but the reason they're successful in the comics is because of the characters that you described, and if you don't adapt the stories and characters that made the series successful in the first place, then good luck making a good movie. I think you just don't know as much about capeshit as you know about One Piece or Naruto. Because your assessments of those manga are correct, but they also apply to capeshit. You're making the same mistaken assumptions about capeshit that SJWs are making, and those false assumptions are why their characters and series keep failing. >One series I can point to that openly displays this is Death Note, where, while each user adopts the title of "Kira", people know that Light is the only TRUE Kira at the end of the day. Yes. And Bruce Wayne is the only true Batman. And Peter Parker is the only true Spider-Man. Clark Kent is the only true Superman. Even in cases where people actually liked the replacements, due to the passing of the mantle being a logical part of the story, like The Flash, it still didn't take, and the fact that the original guy came back is what fans actually complain about, because he had a good death and the sidekick taking over made sense. In fact, I'd argue these cases are more like Dragon Ball Z, where Goku should have stayed dead and Gohan should have remained the main character. But at least Flash stuck with Wally West for 25 years instead of giving up and bringing Goku back after like six weeks.
>>310022 Your claim that Ultraman is just a reboot with the same title only shows that Japanese stuff relies on the title rather than the characters even harder. When Jaime Reyes became Blue Beetle, even though he never got to meet the previous Blue Beetle, and has entirely different costume and powers, the point was that the old guy was still relevant, and not getting to meet him only made Jaime feel more pressure to live up to a figure who seemed even more mythical. And I use him as an example because he is very disconnected from previous versions, as far as western comics go. But he's still intricately connected. It's not just the name that's passed to him, but the history and the world. >>310022 >Hell, most people don't call Terry McGuinese Batman—they call him Terry. And that's not to slam his character, but to emphasize the point. That's my point. It's not about the mantle, it's about the character. Terry is a Batman, but that's not why people like him. People do care about more than the title he is given. His story does interesting things with the fact that he is given the title of an old hero. >>310056 >When it was time for comics to "end", it was pretty clear for them to do so. Twice in fact, one for DC and one for Marvel. DC tried to do exactly that with CoIE and then have the new lines be their own new thing for new readers, just like how the animated series got classic stories and retold them in 25-minute episodes before they decided to dwelve into their own territory with Batman Beyond and the JLA series. That isn't what the Crisis on Infinite Earths was ever supposed to be. It was supposed to merge the universes because they thought the multiverse was confusing, and while at it, they figured they could change some aspects of history if they wanted to change them. Few characters actually rebooted at all. Superman got a new origin story, but it was only his origin, and his present day series just continued from where it was before, just with aspects of the new origin being considered canon over any aspects they changed. Batman continued same as ever with practically no changes (Jason Todd got a new origin, but that's a relatively minor change in the grand scheme of things), despite Batman: Year One technically being his post-Crisis origin (but it really is nothing that couldn't have fit into his pre-Crisis history anyway). Wonder Woman did get fully rebooted, but that was a huge clusterfuck because the Justice League never rebooted (since the universe overall never rebooted at all) and eventually they just un-rebooted her and said the old stuff and the new stuff both happened. New 52, or rather, Flashpoint, was also never intended to be an actual end point. Having the entire universe end because of some Flash story that didn't even involve most major characters would have been fucking stupid. Again, most stories just continued from where they left off, but with some parts of history changed. And then with Rebirth they changed back most of those changes anyway. But it was never intended to be an ending, just changes to make things more "modern" or "simpler" or whatever they thought. It did work in getting a relatively high number of new readers. But that just shows that their marketing actually worked, and telling writers to not rely on continuity so much actually worked. They should do that as a standard. Crisis on Infinite Earths ends with Psycho Pirate saying "Now you never know what can happen!" or some other thing that's just the editors telling you to be super excited for new stories. It was never an ending. >>310056 >Naruto ENDED, period. Boruto, for all intends and purposes is the creation of other people. You could say the same for many comics runs. Many of them do end with an actual end to the story. Then some other people come along and do a sequel story. To use an infamous example of sequels fucking up, Gerry Conway's run on Spider-Man saw him kill off Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn, then do the first "Clone Saga" that dealt with ramifications of this (and people generally don't hate that first Clone Saga). His run ends with an "epilogue" and everything, and it's all very well wrapped up. You can stop reading there and be satisfied. Or you can keep reading and see them do a second Clone Saga 20 years later (one of the most hated Spider-Man stories ever) and bring Norman Osborn back to life. Then later they'd do another story where they revealed he and Gwen fucked and had goblin babies before he killed her. Now, in the case of Spider-Man, you'd say this ruins Gerry Conway's original run. But how is it different from Boruto being new writers coming in and doing a sequel? Hell, at least Conway didn't come back and take over in the middle of the second Clone Saga. When it's manga, people like you understand it's a sequel. When it's American comics, they don't get it. I have to think it's because people don't read American comics anymore. Which is fair enough. But it's annoying when their claims are very uninformed. Naruto and his world will continue to grow and evolve after the point that you claimed was the end. Just like Batman continued to evolve after Bill Finger left. (Bob Kane was a hack con artist who used ghost artists anyway.) Some of those later runs are good, some aren't, but I can understand they're different stories in the same world, the same way you understand that about Naruto and Boruto. >I get where you're going with this but even the very first fucking Ultraman told you, the viewer, that his name isn't "Ultraman" it's a title. He was a space cop and people from his species gain the title of "Ultra(man)" when they take on a job at the Space Garisson. Same shit with Kamen Rider until they swapped continuities. Yes, I'm aware. But considering someone was using Green Lantern as an example to the contrary above, then I don't think Ultraman is not allowed the same criticism. Ultraman would be considered a complete ripoff of Green Lantern if people in the know didn't already know Green Lantern was a ripoff of Lensmen.
>>310508 >$5 for a comic Fuck I could buy a novel for that amount of money. Are they having a laugh no cunt is going to pay $5 for picture book about a rich furry dressed as a bat.
>>309324 I just tried the game, they actually have pussy sliders, yet they have no belly sliders. I can't make my characte slightly chubby or something, and since I don't have any of those very expensive costumes except for the basic one, I don't know if I can put abs on them either.
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>>310551 >belly slider
>>310523 >New 52, or rather, Flashpoint, was also never intended to be an actual end point. Having the entire universe end because of some Flash story that didn't even involve most major characters would have been fucking stupid. Again, most stories just continued from where they left off, but with some parts of history changed. And then with Rebirth they changed back most of those changes anyway. But it was never intended to be an ending, just changes to make things more "modern" or "simpler" or whatever they thought. It did work in getting a relatively high number of new readers. Then why was Batman and Superman's ending especially trying to show absolute finality, Superman's especially with him defeating Omni-Luthor or whatever the fuck he was, the universe having a flashforward where "Eternal Peace" was achieved thanks to him and several people are now Super-powered and keeping peace together, ending on the "everyone can be superman" by having the rival of that arc rip her shirt off to reveal a Superman costume ok, some details are a bit fuzzy, I read that a decade ago As for Crisis, if that was the case, then why-oh-why are so many little details different. And that goes beyond some simple "modernizing", a lot of characters changed, period. Superman is the loudest example of all, his origin story didn't change as a hollow way to modernize him, he changed because of that. Superman used to be Superman, plain and simple. Now, Superman is Clark, pretending to be Superman. That's a massive character shift from what Reeve's was doing in his films to what new generations know about the guy. Same with Batman. >Crisis on Infinite Earths ends with Psycho Pirate saying "Now you never know what can happen!" or some other thing that's just the editors telling you to be super excited for new stories. Fair enough but they were, for the most part, new, at least in the first years before people like Morisson started going apeshit on meta-continuity and doing bullshit, it felt like it could fail. And it could be laid to rest. > But how is it different from Boruto being new writers coming in and doing a sequel? Simple : the audience voices their absolute dislike about it. Boruto's sales have been steadily going down and the only thing keeping it afloat is the Anime-only episodes as a whole, which is watched mainly by kids. Manga also has a very anal yet unspoken code about official shit and fan creations aka doujins. Do you have any idea how many Naruto re-written doujins there are out there that aren't porn yet they autistically recreate entire parts of the saga? A lot. Same with DBZ, a famous example being the Vegeta series by the guy who did the Yamcha Re-incarnation manga. You know why fans love them? Because they are fan made. Passion and autism fuel their creation and its admirable to an extend, fans can do a lot of cool stuff and some of them eventually get to do their own thing don't look at Toyble who's stuck doing DBSuper, look at people like Ken Akamatsu who was doing autistic doujins of Masakazu Katsura's work at the time before doing Love Hina so they can get up in arms when "random retard who wrote some VN" gets to write a sequel to a manga with a definitive end just because Kodansha decided to go full jew. Comics have nothing like that, the closest thing was Todd and his guys breaking away from Marvel and forming Image comics to do what they want. And again, I'll bring eurocomics again where when things like that happened to Lucky Luke and Asterix, sales tanked completely when it came to non-Uderzo and non-U&Goscinny stuff. And that's not even speaking for other titles. I'm sorry to say but it just seems like a giant disconnect between the culture of north american comics compared to the eurocomics and manga. Which is why this : >Naruto and his world will continue to grow and evolve after the point that you claimed was the end. Because it won't, just like Dragon Ball didn't, until Super. GT was one such continuation, there were games who double in what-if future scenarios, you had an online game with a timeline by Toriyama himself about the world and all that was thrown out of the window because nobody felt like it was worth it. If anything, due to how shitty Super was, the popularity of those forgotten things got a rise and TOEI reacted negatively by trying to hide them before concocting the idea of making DB Heroes into an official anime instead of just a card game for toddlers. Naruto doesn't have that kind of leeway at all, so when Boruto ends, that will be it and it will be forgotten and probably, most importantly, burried. > I don't think Ultraman is not allowed the same criticism. Fair enough >Ultraman would be considered a complete ripoff of Green Lantern if people in the know didn't already know Green Lantern was a ripoff of Lensmen >Green Lantern <Not Super Giant <Who was already a rip-off of Ougon Bat and Superman Come on now. 8^) Where are you from, my guy? >>310524 You think that's bad? Wait until you hear how much they often charge for fucking extra covers. It used to be simple with collected hardbacks costing about 20 bucks for 200+ pages and in full colour but now they charge 5 for barely 20 pages and they're all still broken in-between with shitty adverts. Fuck modern comics. At least in the 50s throught he 70s you had the adverts in between the 7 to 10 page stories in a 25+ page comic each month. >>310551 >It had pussy sliders all along Holy fuck, that's amazing.
>>310551 Anon, are you sure it's not bundled in with any malicious software? Not that I'm saying League of Maidens is confirmed or even rumored to have that but I'd take precautions with a game that looks like that.
>>310523 >Your claim that Ultraman is just a reboot with the same title only shows that Japanese stuff relies on the title rather than the characters even harder. Forgot about that one : Ultraman and his brethren, Kamen Rider and Super Sentai have one key difference between comic characters : they are portrayed by actors. They are conceived as tv characters for actors to play rather than comic characters that can be played by anyone so long as they look the part. Takeshi Hongo is and always will be Kamen Rider #1. And it's due to that that even when doing crossovers you sometimes don't see a lot of characters out of costume an it's why Tsuburaya has been trying for years now to shift the status quo of Ultramen away from the "the human host is the character and the Ultraman is the secondary guy who rarely talks" to something closer to Ultra7 and Ultraman Mebius, sometimes even forgoing human hosts entirely like Ultraman Zero just so that the characters can be truly "immortal" like Godzilla since now they are a costume in the real sense I mean, they are a costume in tv and you just dub their voices and they'd still be the same something you can't exactly do with comic characters. Look at Michael Keaton as Batman, people were going apeshit and hated that casting choice when it was announced but now everybody loves. Tl;dr : You should have used something like Devilman or better yet, Gundam to say that the other anon cements that nips relly more on titles.
>>310451 I'm no expert on the show, but when I was like 12 and it first came out, I turned it on, saw it was typical "super competent girl with bumbling buffoon male sidekick" and didn't feel the need to watch more. I never found that shit very likable, even as a kid. The Powerpuff Girls were likable protagonists from a similar show around the same era, and didn't rely on obvious "girl power" cliches nearly as much. My Life as a Teenage Robot, too (though admittedly I don't remember as much of that one, so maybe it sucked too). >>310620 This argument still relies on the premise that people only care about Batman, Spider-Man, etc., and not about Bruce Wayne, Peter Parker, etc. SJWs have been trying hard to push that the last few years, but it doesn't check out. Also, sometimes the actors do end up fairly closely connected with specific iterations of the character. It would have made the tv version of the Crisis on Infinite Earths awesome, if it wasn't done in current year and made to be SJW propaganda. We got 1990 Flash and 1966 Robin and 2001 Superman Smallville and it would have been awesome if they didn't fuck it up so bad. Also, a lot of comics to this day still try to draw Superman to look like Christopher Reeve, even though it usually ends up looking uncanny as fuck.
>>310616 >Then why was Batman and Superman's ending especially trying to show absolute finality Batman in particular was right in the middle of Morrison's autistic run, and not at all final. Some writers might have tried to put some finality on things, but Batman & Green Lantern, two of the most successful series at the time, were nowhere near the end of their runs, and just kept going like nothing happened, in ways that sometimes fucked with changed history elements other writers were trying to do. >As for Crisis, if that was the case, then why-oh-why are so many little details different. Because they felt like changing things. John Byrne in particular made a lot of changes to Superman for personal subjective reasons (which many people agree with, but still). For example, he had Superman not refer to Krypton as much because he felt that adopted children constantly bitching about their birth parents makes them seem ungrateful. Go look up Byrne's wikiquote page. It's great. The point remains that, while Man of Steel was set in the past, it was done so specifically in a way so that all (or rather, almost all) of the old stories still happened, and the stories in Man of Steel were just slotted in between old stories, sometimes replacing them. Man of Steel is a collection of stories that take place over a ten year period for this reason. It's been ten years since Superman first appeared, and those ten years are meant to be the time that all of his pre-Crisis appearances happened in. Meanwhile, Action Comics and the rest of the Superman monthly series just continued with present day stories that take place after the Crisis on Infinite Earths and all (or rather, almost all) the stories that happened before it. Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis are extremely similar to Crisis on Infinite Earths, and nobody ever gets confused about them being reboots. Both were marketed as being Crisis 2, and they both effectively are. None of these stories are reboots. They're events where cosmic sci fi shit changes history, though. >Fair enough but they were, for the most part, new, at least in the first years before people like Morisson started going apeshit on meta-continuity and doing bullshit, it felt like it could fail. Wonder Woman is the only major character rebooted after the Crisis on Infinite Earths. There are more minor characters that were rebooted, but nobody gets very confused over Supergirl or Brainiac because they are secondary supporting characters. (Though the Crisis did make them confusing as fuck due to rebooting them but not rebooting Superman.) Even Hawkman wasn't rebooted due to the Crisis on Infinite Earths, and he's the poster child for the Crisis events fucking things up. They just said that there were two Hawkmen, the JSA one and the JLA one. It didn't get fucked up until they did "Hawkworld," an origin story that was obviously supposed to be set in the past, but then DC got greedy when they saw it was successful, and made it an ongoing series instead of a miniseries, and had Hawkworld's Katar Hol come to Earth in present day. But that meant that the Katar Hol from all those JLA stories (including the Pre-Crisis ones) wasn't the "real" one so they retconned him to be a villain impostor, Fel Andar. But then everyone hated that, so they used Zero Hour to change history so that WWII era Carter Hall was actually the Hawkman in the Pre-Crisis JLA, and Fel Andar only showed up after the Crisis. Katar Hol was still a new guy who only showed up in the '90s, not the '60s. So Katar Hol was effectively rebooted. However, the Crisis always gets blamed for this, but it's not actually that. It's all Hawkworld's fault. >Simple : the audience voices their absolute dislike about it. Same with bad DC and Marvel stories. The audience voices their dislike so hard that basically the only people who buy comics anymore are youtube faggots buying them just to make fun of them. We all know the industry only exists because the movies are propping them up and the costs are cheap enough that WB and Disney figure it's worth avoiding the bad press of saying they cancelled Batman after 80 years. >Passion and autism fuel their creation and its admirable to an extend, fans can do a lot of cool stuff and some of them eventually get to do their own thing Western comics do that. The best example is the Sonic the Hedgehog comics, since those people were literally hired based on fanfiction. However, a very similar example can also be seen with Geoff Johns, a kid who wrote into the letters pages with his autistic ideas about how it would be cool if Superboy's human half was actually Lex Luthor, and then eventually got to actually make it canon. Hell, Infinite Crisis is basically Geoff Johns writing his own autobiography into continuity, only he makes himself the bad guy, Superboy-Prime. Johns was the main guy at DC for like 15 years. >sales tanked completely when it came to non-Uderzo and non-U&Goscinny stuff. This does happen in some American comics. The difference is that back in the day, they typically actually got good replacements when the original teams left, so people got used to the idea. When Steve Ditko left Spider-Man, John Romita Sr actually proved himself a good replacement, and then Gerry Conway or whoever was next was a good replacement again. Creators were expected to cut their teeth on lesser known works before getting to go on the massive cash cow franchises. The problem is that standards for this have dropped over time, and went right off a cliff in the last few years. However, the point remains that if it's bad, fans can understand that it's just something different. Casuals don't, but fans do. Marvel can do what they want with modern Captain America. Fans know it's not the fucking same. The last run that was good was the last one that counted. >Because it won't, just like Dragon Ball didn't, until Super. >just like it didn't, until it did Naruto is continuing right now. There's a sequel series going on right now. If you can understand that's a sequel series, then I can understand that Green Lantern Vol 6 or whatever is a sequel to Green Lantern Vol 4 and 5. >you had an online game with a timeline by Toriyama himself about the world and all that was thrown out of the window because nobody felt like it was worth it. All that time travel shit still seems canon and sometimes referenced in Dragon Ball Heroes. Dragon Ball video-game related lore is deep as fuck and excellent autism-bait. The Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime doesn't do it justice. Some of the manga are... interesting, though. >Naruto doesn't have that kind of leeway at all, so when Boruto ends, that will be it and it will be forgotten and probably, most importantly, burried. Unless they feel it could still be profitable to do more after, which is very likely considering it's already been going for over 20 years. >Who was already a rip-off of Ougon Bat and Superman A space cop dying and leaving his powers to some human guy (and isn't he a test pilot or something like that too?) is a fairly specific origin story. Of course they're all descended from other things, but the similarities between Ultraman and Green Lantern are unmistakable.
>>310620 > You should have used something like Devilman There's only one Devilman, Akira Fuduo. The only time it is not Akira (Outside of spin-off lore series) was in Devilman Lady. >>310628 >A space cop dying and leaving his powers to some human guy (and isn't he a test pilot or something like that too?) is a fairly specific origin story. Of course they're all descended from other things, but the similarities between Ultraman and Green Lantern are unmistakable. Decided to look it up, Ultraman started as a spin-off of Ultra Q, Japan's answer to The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits.
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>>310523 >Your claim that Ultraman is just a reboot with the same title only shows that Japanese stuff relies on the title rather than the characters even harder. They don't, though. With continuity being the topic, the only stretch you can go for beyond the Tokusatsu types and Pretty Cure, is Gundam. The key point in all of it is the continuity. To my immediate knowledge, every Ultraman is its own story with entirely different characters, villains, and plot. Kamen Rider, for the most part (I don't pretend to have watched Decade or many other seasons) are by and large self-contained stories. The very same for Precure—two direct sequel seasons aside, each season is new cast, new villains, new story. Gundam is an odd half and half because you have the Universal Century continuity which is all about 87 and the many wars that came after it, and a lot of spinoffs that have absolutely nothing to do with one another save for having the titular robot somewhere on set. Here's the important part: Contrast those handful of series with the 40 or so anime titles released seasonally, or the hundreds of books published on a weekly/monthly basis. It's not that Japan relies on the method of passing the mantle—it's that they know not to ABUSE the mantle as a function in most cases (DBZ was an outlier—both editor AND fans preferred Goku to Gohan, so he was sidelined as a replacement). You're not expected to know every season of Precure. Hell, most Precure fans opening up will recommend season 7 (Heartcatch) as the litmus test for curious newcomers are willing to stick around to learn and enjoy or not (Protip: most do because Heartcatch was fucking amazing from start to finish). There's no feeling in that season that Tsubomi Hanasaki, the main character, has to live up to 7 years worth of combat hailing from her predecessors. In fact, the only prior generation of concern that season was birthed IN that season and made a B Plot focus: The fallen Tsukikage Yuri/Cure Moonlight. But even with that, Tsubomi (Cure Blossom) and Erika (Cure Marine) are allowed to blossom and grow in their own way, gaining friends, fighting their villains, learning some pointed lessons and actually paving the way for Cure Moonlight's redemption. And then the third act comes in like a freight train barreling down on you and it just gets even BETTER. Contrast with capebooks past and present use of new characters in legacy role, and I can't convey the same feeling of clean, professional use for story's sake. All of the Precures have their identities and cemented their roles. Terry's still Terry. Wally is arguable for me only because I started with Wally and not Barry (but still prefer Bart the most). Miles is still Miles. Really, my takeaway with this, all discussion aside, is y'all really need to check out Precure it's fuckin' great.
>>310627 >Also, sometimes the actors do end up fairly closely connected with specific iterations of the character. Yeah, the so called "synergy", I remember when they tried modelling several characters after their cartoon appearances in the 90s. By then Reeveman was the standard drawing just like CarterWoman was a thing for many, including Perez and Frank. >>310628 >Batman & Green Lantern I remember that about Green Lantern and them continuing as if nothing happened, Cereal Lord went especially autismo with his Lantern War after math IIRC? >>310628 >Go look up Byrne's wikiquote page. It's great. I'm aware but it wasn't just that. Superman essentially went from Superjew to Superman from the Fleischers for almost 3 decades, to Reeveman who was a "modernized" Fleischerman to post CoIE Superman which is what most people today know as him. Same with Batman, he went from an autistic batfurry with a fake Zorro costume that would murder his villains, to goofy Bat-themed superhero that became more suave the moment Dennis O'Neil got him in the 70s to modern Bamham that's a mix of Frank Miller's Dark Knight and the BurtonMan. I was a kid when it happened as well, growing up with reruns of Batman '66 and reading my dad's Batman comics and the moment I heard Batman would receive a cartoon I was ecstatic. And I hated it at first because I got some scary dude who gave me nightmares instead of Adam West. And that goes for other characters as well, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman who never had a character beyond "current year stronk feminist standards" mixed with "Amazon princess" except for JLA and of course, CarterWoman that had strong portrayals and almost definitive versions of the characters. >The audience voices their dislike so hard that basically the only people who buy comics anymore are youtube faggots buying them just to make fun of them. <Press X to Doubt Maybe the actual, physical comics, sure. But pretending that sites like Comixology haven't pushed DC and Marvel comics to the point where they can be sustained by autistic neetbux is a bit disingenuous. A lot of people buy digital comics, albeit it's the older titles or shit like "big stories" like Watchmen for the 1000th time. But with the way they are oing now, they could keep making movies and selling comics digitally, especially promoting their old ones and both companies would actually stay afloat, no matter how much SJWs screeched at comic readers being misogynist nerds or whatever. >Geoff Johns, a kid who wrote into the letters pages with his autistic ideas about how it would be cool if Superboy's human half was actually Lex Luthor, and then eventually got to actually make it canon. I'm fucking gilled with such immense rage now because I knew about Johns Lantern autism but not this. >The difference is that back in the day, they typically actually got good replacements when the original teams left The editors also kept a bit of a tight leash on their autism, let's not forget that. >Naruto is continuing right now. Fair enough, let me explain : >America an Holywood want to do DB live action >Autists only care <Nips don't care >Movie comes out >Nips go and see it out of morbid curiosity <It's fucking Hiroshima PTSD all over again for them <Even Toriyama, who never goes and says anything about fan creations said "this is some fucking shit, I better write something. I fucking swore to only do Dragon Quest but fuck this shit" <The Japanese government literally fucking demands and funds TOEI and Toriyama's next DB project to wipe the bitter taste of DB Evolution. <50 MILLION YEN BY THE CULTURAL MINISTRY >Fans cheer >More shit to come out >Fans keep autistically cheering even when horrible animation came out of their tv screens Now for Naruto >Naruto ends >Fans cheer >Boruto stars due to Shueisha being niggers <Fans wish for the series to die <Series is only kept alive due to tv ratings from kids <Fans still don't give a fuck and wish for the series to fucking die already because it shits on Naruto DB continued out of an external factor that if it wasn't there, we wouldn't be having Super right now. >A space cop dying and leaving his powers to some human guy (and isn't he a test pilot or something like that too?) is a fairly specific origin story. That's not Ultraman's story. That's Ultraman Noah's story some 40 years later, in the reboot film Ultraman : The Next. Ultraman is : >I'm Ultraman and I'm flying trying to catch that giganigger criminal through spcae <Oh fuck I injured a human <OH SHIT HE'S DEAD <Here, bond with me my guy so we can share lifeforce and you can live >Human guy is completely unaware at first that he can grow large and karate chop aliens >Halfway through the series does he realise that he and Ultraman are one Heck, in the end they both die and get revived by Father of Ultra and that's what allows Hayata to live normally without being merged with Ultraman anymore and Ultraman can go back to being a loveable but clumsy space cop. Sounds similar but it's really not. Besides, Tsuburaya was into Twillight Zone if we're talking about westaboo stuff, not superheroes. >>310647 >There's only one Devilman, Akira Fuduo. The only time it is not Akira (Outside of spin-off lore series) was in Devilman Lady. I have to assume you mean the anime because in Devilman Lady, Akira still is Devilman. Comparatively, when Nagai isn't involved or isn't involved as much, such as the cases of CRYBABY and the original Toei anime respectively you get other people to be Devilman such as "Devilman inhabiting Akira's body because Akira's dead" and "Super Gay, donkey dicked [totally Akira Fudou and not Tetsuo the Iron Man]".
So will there ever be a followup to Undefeated?
>>310661 >Toriyama's hatred of Fox's shit movie fueled Battle of the Gods and Brolly and Super Oh my god that's fucking hilarious
>>310666 Yup, the manga is still ongoing with a second movie on the way. If anything FOX brought back DragonBall by making such a terrible movie.
>>310661 >And I hated it at first because I got some scary dude who gave me nightmares instead of Adam West. Always preferred The Batman over TAS, although I wonder how much of that was influenced by watch reruns of HB DC cartoons on Boomerang. >>310666 >>310667 It wasn't JUST the Pedowood film, Toriyama was ticked off with how everyone (Including Toei) handled the franchise: https://archive.vn/CYkvc >I had put Dragon Ball behind me, but seeing how much that live-action film ticked me off, and how I revised that script for the anime movie and complained about the quality of the TV anime, I suppose somewhere along the line it’s become a series I like too much to ever leave alone.
>>310669 Yeah but GT was basically finished for years by that point. The Pedowood movie had to be the final straw.
>>310667 >brought back DragonBall Eh, not really, you had the games coming out constantly, so it wasn't ever gone but it was doomed to be the eternal retelling of the stories until Spike Chunsoft went ham with the Tenkaichi series. >>310671 Pretty much. It's no secret that Tori didn't like what Toei was doing but by that point, he was effectively 15 years away from Dragon Ball having its balls fondled by stupid executives and he had calmed down enough to do new cover drawing s for the then releases of the new volume packaging of DB, the Kanzenban editions. Seeing the film just revived that feeling and got him autistically mad. And rightfully so.
>>310449 The last two boxarts make it look like she has a thin mouth and a mustache. >>310627 >I'm no expert on the show, but when I was like 12 and it first came out, I turned it on, saw it was typical "super competent girl with bumbling buffoon male sidekick" and didn't feel the need to watch more. I never found that shit very likable, even as a kid. The Powerpuff Girls were likable protagonists from a similar show around the same era, and didn't rely on obvious "girl power" cliches nearly as much. My Life as a Teenage Robot, too (though admittedly I don't remember as much of that one, so maybe it sucked too). Yeah, it's one of those shows where the only way to make the girl character competent was to reduce every male character to an idiot. It has been forever since I saw the show (and even then I did not care much about it), but the only decent male character I remember was her father who is a rocket scientist or something like that. But he's a parent in a teenage cartoon, so most of the time he didn't really matter.
>>310627 >>310678 It gets better when you take up the theory that Ron is acting stupid and helpless on purpose. Because he's a Kike. And, not just any Kike, THE FUCKING ALMIGHTY BLUE KIKE.
>>309503 >I'd go so far as to argue that the quality of the art in American comics is typically higher than manga, if we remove the last few years as an outlier. That stopped being true sometime in the 80s. Old, skilled artists in the U.S. started dying off or retiring, and most potential talent has heard enough horror stories from people abused by big two to instead go into other media. >>310508 >comics are fundametally magazines Most Europeans ditched that mentality, and comics are treated more like books. Creators work on them, and new tome releases when it's ready. Usually in intervals of one to two years on average if it is a series instead of a self-contained story. Considering that most European comic book markets keep growing and even slowly encroaching into American market, this quality of quantity strategy is working pretty well.
>>310618 >Anon, are you sure it's not bundled in with any malicious software? No need for malicious software, the store is the malicious software. You should see the prices, it's ridiculously expensive.
>>310666 >>310661 One of the guests Nick Rekieta had on his show worked behind the scenes on that shit. He claims a large part of why it was so shit was executives saw another movie that was influenced by Journey to the West coming around the same time, didn't realize they were pulling from the same uber popular 1500s novel, and ordered rewrites to avoid looking too similar. Since this was during the guild strike, there weren't any writers available and the executives decided to do it themselves.
>>310056 >Only due to a scandal did Kishimoto return to write the current chapters of Boruto. What happened? Nobuhiro Watsuki was caught as a child predator. What did the Boruto writer did?
>>310056 >The one that does fit the capeshit mantle on the other hand is Toei's proper creations, the current Super Sentai and the Metal Heroes that, surprisingly, do fit the mold more than Ultra or Rider. Super Sentai fits in more than what you cited, due to the fact that it was created by the same author of Kamen Rider, then it got "hijacked" by the company when it became successful. The original stories ended, by the author. But Toei keep making more shows in the franchise, forcefully linking them all together, and bringing back the first 2 series that were created by the author and forcefully making them go on forever in the form of cameos and crossovers., ruining their original continuity, and producing lots of contradicting plots and lots of plot holes.
>>310476 Programmers and coders can't have creative and fun ideas anymore, so they are practically useless for entertainment too.
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>>310778 Fucking unbelievable. >>310779 >What happened? Bullshit with editors and the artist, along with the feud spilling on social media during a drunken night. You know, the usual no-nos in bussiness. >>310781 That's not what happened though. Ishinomori did make the original Sentai and its manga and when Marvel proposed to colaborate with them but fell apart, that's how Battle Fever J was born. After that, Ishinomori wanted to be exclusively on Kamen Rider and to finish Cyborg 009 so he left Super Sentai to TOEI, something that wasn't uncommon back then. Something similar happened with the original Getter Robo, initially it was Go Nagai who thought of the basic idea, premise and characters but left it to Ken Ishikawa the moment he proposed it should be three fighter jets that combine instead of three bikes.
>>310509 >This isn't true. It's what SJWs want to believe, but they're wrong, and that's why their characters keep failing. How can you honestly judge what is and isn't "failing" outside of a slight uptic in readership that doesn't cause a dent in the overall profits? And, anger on social media that just becomes white noise because no one is happy for on reason or another (Regardless of how justified they are in being outright pissed). Also, I do acknowledge that America comics were not ALWAYS like this. However, it's been a trend that's been common over the past three decades. In fact, that was common trope in films and TV as well. Just look at some of the media that came out that either slandered or retired the "old guard" and replaced them with the righteous rookies and interns. And, like you said, the entire reason why they do it is to make it all about the title rather than the character(s) so that the hack writers can push their propaganda. However, I've yet to see any evidence stating that they're successful or failing outside of arbitrary numbers in a failing medium. And, declaring that "So-and-so is gone" doesn't indicate jackshit. Media THRIVES upon drama. The more drama they create, they more of an advantage they have when it comes to selling you something, regardless of whether that's time or money spent. Just look at how Jewtube channels like Overlord DVD or those watching the EvA lawsuit have been rocking it in ratings thanks to all the rumors and leaks coming out. And, speaking of which, you also have to look at the details of what's going on, too. For example, last I heard, the only "quality" comic I've heard coming out of Marvel since the 2014 "end" of the MU was Gwenpool by Hastings. And, Hastings "left" in 2018 and "returned" in 2019. Well, what was he doing during that year of absence? He was writing other comics for FUCKING MARVEL. He didn't leave, nor was fired from the company, they just cycled him around to other parts of the company. And, when you sit back and think about it, it's actually a rather brilliant ploy. Get people to write good stories, move them around (While keeping them on site) in order to show that there's interest in even just "average" material, and then put them back into position and make yourself look like a "hero" for how you're "listening to the fans" when all you were really doing was just showing that there was a group of suckers out there who's paying attention and will continue to order your shlock just so that you can pay the bills. To put it another way, old American comics and manga focus on "Character X is Hero Y". Meanwhile, newer material focuses on "Hero Y is being played by Character X".
>>310647 >Decided to look it up, Ultraman started as a spin-off of Ultra Q, Japan's answer to The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits. Yeah, it was an anthology series. That makes it kind of a moot point, since each episode is completely standalone. Green Lantern is a spinoff of the anthology series "Showcase," with his first appearance in Showcase #22. The Flash is also a spinoff of Showcase, from #4, as are many other characters. (Well technically they're both reboots of 1940s series, but they were completely unrelated at first, until nerds got mad about someone other than Jay Garrick being marketed as The Flash, so DC invented the multiverse to appease them.) Happy Days is technically a spinoff of anthology series "Love, American Style," but that doesn't diminish the fact that really it's just a ripoff of American Graffiti. It just so happens that the episode it spun off from was a ripoff of American Graffiti. >>310648 >To my immediate knowledge, every Ultraman is its own story with entirely different characters, villains, and plot. Kamen Rider, for the most part (I don't pretend to have watched Decade or many other seasons) are by and large self-contained stories. That only makes it worse. They're sold on the brand so hard that they don't even have the same worlds to pretend that they're being sold on story. When a western superhero gets replaced, it's typically sold as following the story of the world and the previous character's legacy. The fact that Japanese series just call a completely new series "Digimon" even though it's entirely unrelated just shows that they sell purely on brand, even moreso than capeshit. They slap a guy called Agumon on the series, who has a completely different history, and is just plain not the same guy, but he looks the same and has the same name, and we're just supposed to buy it because of the name and design. Hopefully it's good on its own merits And I like Digimon Savers but don't act like Barry Allen isn't a character that the readers are expected to care about, and only a guy inside a suit that the readers are expected to care about, when even after he died, decades of stories specifically about his legacy. Meanwhile, Japanese shit just goes "this is Kamen Rider now. You like it because it's called Kamen Rider, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the previous series that you liked. Just forget those old characters you liked. They don't matter anymore. They don't exist anymore." Even when capeshit tries to actually erase characters, it almost never sticks, because people care about the characters too much. Supergirl, or rather, Kara Zor-El, got killed so hard by the Anti-Monitor that she never existed, and then a new Supergirl called Matrix showed up, but people still missed Kara Zor-El, so they did autistic (but actually good) stories about the ghost of a character that wasn't supposed to have ever existed roaming the world and dealing with the fact that nobody remembers she sacrificed herself for them. Because Supergirl wasn't just a title. The new Supergirl was not the same character, and the readers did miss the old one. DC had to go back on one of the few times they tried to actually erase a character. Also note that Marvel practically never erases characters or changes history like that. That's just a DC thing. >it's that they know not to ABUSE the mantle as a function in most cases That's a very modern problem, and I don't want anyone to think I'm defending the shit that the capeshit industry has become infamous for in the last few years. There were few cases of this in the past. They were generally done well, and even when not done well at first, they fixed it in response to fan demand. What I'm arguing against is the claim that the mantle is the thing people care about and not the characters. If that were the case, Barry Allen would have stayed dead, since his passing of the mantle was considered successful, and if people only cared about "The Flash," then surely they wouldn't want to face the backlash of sidelining Wally. As you pointed out, Terry is still Terry, and Batman is Bruce Wayne, even if in the specific story, Terry is called Batman in-universe. Even when Dick Grayson became Batman, which again was something people liked, it's just too hard to really make it feel like Batman is truly anyone other than Bruce Wayne. And if anything, you could say that is the real problem. It would probably be cool if they actually had Dick or Terry replace Bruce Wayne permanently. But they just can't get it done. However, they are able to replace Robins, but then each Robin remains important as his own character.
>>310689 American comics are also very slowly transitioning away from the magazine model, with higher focus on collected editions and original graphic novels, but though these now make up an absurd number of sales, the major companies are too dumb to prioritize it. The magazine model has too much momentum, even though it's practically dead. If they were smart, they'd move entirely to a graphic novel model, since practically all stories are "written for the trade (paperback)" anyway, which means they're all like six issues long. Instead of putting out over 52 issues per month twelve months a year, they'd be better off putting out like two graphic novels per week. However, 52 issues per month is way too much, so one graphic novel per week would probably be better. The really successful series like Batman or whatever can get two graphic novels per year, one every six months. There could be plenty of one-offs or spinoffs, and since it's one per week, continuity would be easier to organize and follow, which is a major problem for them. Of course, it would also be easier for people to buy. If they want to keep autistic continuity, they can at least put everything in release order, since at least each book would know what happened last in any other books it references. >How can you honestly judge what is and isn't "failing" outside of a slight uptic in readership that doesn't cause a dent in the overall profits? These people are very vocal about their dedication to their propaganda, and loudly complain when they fail and their shit gets cancelled. Your argument that it's some sort of New Coke conspiracy to just make the old ones seem better is not believable. Granted, they've done that before, like when Bruce Wayne got replaced as Batman during Knightfall, but that was always intended as a single story, and people like it, so I don't think it falls into what you're talking about here. And Gwenpool sucks and the people who said otherwise are just abused puppies who think that slightly less abuse means they're being treated well. However, I still don't buy that it was all a plot to increase sales, because all that happened is sales tanked for a year, and you can bet your ass they weren't higher when he came back than when he left. More likely it was not selling well enough to begin with, hence the writer getting taken off it, but then they found things just kept getting worse, so they put him back. Or maybe he wanted to do other stuff. Or maybe some SJW higher on the progressive stack wanted his series. These people don't get fired entirely because the modern comic book industry is a literal cult and you only get fired from your job if you do something to get you excommunicated from the cult. You don't get fired due to low sales. You just get your series cancelled and you get shuffled off somewhere else, like a child molesting priest. >Meanwhile, newer material focuses on "Hero Y is being played by Character X". Well nobody here is defending modern shit. However, I will still contest your claim that they've been doing it for 30 years. It's very recent. I see your examples in your images (though the last one is very recent), but Knight Rider 2008 didn't shit on Michael Knight, did it? wasn't he the guy's dad or something? And then it got cancelled after like eight episodes? I watched it, but obviously it was forgettable. Mission: Impossible is a better example, but even there, I don't know if it was malicious or just because they figured they were replacing the cast anyway with young people and figured that would be a crazy twist. Speed and Backdraft aren't sequels, but I get what you're saying, how they have a similar thing going on. Comics did do something like this once around the same time, with Zero Hour making Hal Jordan a villain, but they backtracked on that really damn hard, relatively quickly. Within two years he sacrificed himself and became a hero again. Then a couple years later they brought him back as a different superhero. Then they just made him Green Lantern again. This is not at all comparable to the shit going on today. Yes, they later retconned Kyle Rayner to be half-latino or something, but that wasn't there at the start and not one of the marketing points for making him Green Lantern.
>>310661 >I remember that about Green Lantern and them continuing as if nothing happened, Cereal Lord went especially autismo with his Lantern War after math IIRC? Well he straight up wasn't finished with his story, so he kept going until it was done. It was never intended as a reboot. That's why Justice League: Origin and Morrison's Action Comics Run are both set about five years before "the present." So they could say most of the old stories still happened. Even a lot of the series that successfully felt like reboots were not. Swamp Thing began with Alec Holland being a human and then in the first arc getting turned into Swamp Thing. Sounds like an origin, right? No, because they also make clear that Alec Holland was dead, and just came back to life, which happened in Brightest Day. Superman even visits him in the first issue and talks about how he knows what it's like to come back to life (which they would later fuck up when Superman: Reborn said that Post-Flashpoint Superman never did the Death of Superman arc, even though it was heavily referenced in a bunch of previous Post-Flashpoint stuff, but then they only said it wasn't canon so that they could say that, due to Superman: Reborn, it was canon again). Also, for anyone unsure about if it was a reboot, he even meets the previous Swamp Thing (who thought he was Alec Holland but turned out to just be a plant monster with Holland's memories), from all the previous Swamp Thing stories. But by that point anyone who jumped on thinking it was a reboot would probably have read enough to understand what was going on. >Superman essentially went from Superjew to Superman from the Fleischers for almost 3 decades, to Reeveman who was a "modernized" Fleischerman to post CoIE Superman which is what most people today know as him. The differences are really overstated. If you read in order, the evolution is slow, and not jarring. The closest it gets to being jarring is the Crisis on Infinite Earths, due to Man of Steel being a deliberate change of some classic elements, but it's still actually slow. First of all, people forget just how modernized Superman had been before the Crisis, as he had long been a tv news reporter by that point. The idea that "Clark" is the real personality is also overstated because really, his real personality would always be somewhere between the two. Granted, simply due to the tone of Superman stories, that aspect wasn't really shown until the Silver and Bronze ages (few Golden Age stories really got particularly deep into the characters' personalities to begin with), but it was effectively shown well before Man of Steel. Man of Steel just pointed it out and made it more explicit. And it was good for doing that. But it wasn't actually a very jarring change. If you read a comic from 1984 and one from 1987, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference aside from things like Luthor and Brainiac being different. For Batman, the same thing applies, though I want to note that Batman stopped killing villains very early on. Even early on, it happens rarely. He kills Hugo Strange's Monster Men, but they're arguably no longer human, and killing monsters is different. I think he kills Tony Zucco, but if anyone deserved it, it's him. If I wanted to get really autistic, I'd argue it's like how in Batman Forever he kills Two-Face to prevent Robin from killing the man who killed his parents because he knows Robin would do it and it would be bad for him. I know that's being too generous, but I'm just sayin'. Also, I do like how later stories would try to make more explicit in-universe reasons for changes in tone, like saying Batman got darker as Robin got older, and especially when he went to college (which was the O'Neil era). Same as how they now say that Dick is the one who called everything "The Batmobile" and "The Bat-Cave" and stuff like that. And it mostly checks out, since it did actually start getting lighter once Robin showed up, and got darker again when he left for college.
>>310661 >Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman Wonder Woman was one of the few major characters to get a total reboot after the Crisis. Martian Manhunter got significant changes but was technically considered the same guy, only now Mars was a dead planet. Considering how long it had been since he had any solo stories, I don't think anyone cared. Aquaman didn't reboot either, and most of the changes people attribute to the Crisis actually came with Peter David's run, which only started right before Zero Hour. I think technically his changes would be considered canon to the Post-Crisis Pre-Zero Hour Aquaman, but Zero Hour was like the month after they happened, and really, that version of Aquaman's history, where he was raised by dolphins and all that weird stuff, should be considered his post-Zero Hour history. Of course, note that either way, he's still the same guy from Earth-One, but his history was changed. They make a big point in the Post-Crisis JLA to say that he is the only founding member who is still on the current version of the team, the "Justice League Detroit," before they break up and get replaced with the JLI. >But pretending that sites like Comixology haven't pushed DC and Marvel comics to the point where they can be sustained by autistic neetbux is a bit disingenuous. I question heavily the amount of sales that come from services like that. Their prices are outrageous, it's not as comfortable as reading a physical book, and if people were still reading the new shit, they'd probably be talking about it, and the series wouldn't keep getting cancelled. If those services do make any sales, they're probably all for old comics that might actually be harder to find, instead of new shit that comic shops can't even give away. I'm not talking about sales of old comics, because that's a completely different matter. Sales of stories from the '80s does not incentivize the companies to keep commissioning new material, especially new material that does nothing but shit on the old material and the people who like it (AKA, things that sell and the people who buy them). >I'm fucking gilled with such immense rage now because I knew about Johns Lantern autism but not this. I actually love it. Geoff Johns is my favorite autist in the world. Superboy being related to Lex is a cooler thing that him being related to that guy from Cadmus. His immense Green Lantern autism allowed him to find hidden depths to all those old villains that actually made sense and tied them all together in very interesting ways. I don't think I like how he sidelined Wally West in favor of bringing Barry Allen back, but I'm not sure how much of that was his choice and how much was the decision of money makers who maybe wanted to make it simpler to sell adaptations or something. Also, as I mentioned, I like Infinite Crisis a lot, even though I'm not sure if Johns even realized he made himself the villain of the story. But he did do it, and that's very interesting. >Naruto continues as Boruto and fans hate it Just like how fans hate all the modern SJW shit that the capeshit companies have been doing. Nobody accepted Riri Williams as Iron Man, or Jane Foster as Thor (and she was a well established character). They didn't even accept Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel, and she was a classic character there from day one, and one who logically would make sense taking the mantle, but it was written like shit so nobody liked it or accepted it. >That's not Ultraman's story. I've seen the original Ultraman. I wasn't even aware of the later one you mentioned (or any of the later ones. I only know the first one). Go read the first Hal Jordan Green Lantern story and watch the first episode of Ultraman. It's the same shit. Also, Hal wasn't aware he was a space cop until like a year later. Yes, the aspect of him bonding with Ultraman is different (and kind of like one of Marvel's attempts at making their Captain Marvel stick, which happened later and is arguably a ripoff of Ultraman), but it's not super important. Effectively, a test pilot or whatever gets powers from a space cop and ends up taking on that role. It's not 1 to 1 but it's pretty close.
>>311275 >The fact that Japanese series just call a completely new series "Digimon" even though it's entirely unrelated just shows that they sell purely on brand, even moreso than capeshit. It's based around digital monsters, that come from another dimension, and have a master that they befriend and serve in order to gain power so that they can fight bigger and bigger threats. That's been the series' shtick since '98 with the V-Tamers manga, with the sole exception of Frontier. >They slap a guy called Agumon on the series, who has a completely different history, and is just plain not the same guy, but he looks the same and has the same name, and we're just supposed to buy it because of the name and design. And, what about the fact that V-Tamers and Adventure (The earliest Digimon media, with the former starting just four months prior to the latter) have the same Taichi, who go on two widely different adventures? Also, a Digimon's name is it's species. Also, Digimon is based around those v-pet toys that were popular from over a decade ago. >Meanwhile, Japanese shit just goes "this is Kamen Rider now. You like it because it's called Kamen Rider, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the previous series that you liked. Just forget those old characters you liked. They don't matter anymore. They don't exist anymore." No, they establish that it's a different Kamen Rider RIGHT IN THE FUCKING TITILE. There's V3, Black, W, and so on. And, as other Anons have pointed out, those characters still exist. >Even when capeshit tries to actually erase characters, it almost never sticks, because people care about the characters too much. Because that's the name of the fucking series. If you're going to have a Batman series, people expect Batman to be Bruce Wayne. If they DON'T see Bruce Wayne as Batman, they think they picked up the wrong comic. What Japan is doing is something the DCAU SOLVED over twenty years ago when they made Batman Beyond. BB is perhaps one of the most notable series where Batman IS NOT Bruce Wayne, Batman is Terry McGinnis in that series. And, Timm and the rest of the team new that it was fucking stupid to just call the series Batman and be done with it. People would go in expecting to see Bruce Wayne kicking ass, and instead they'd be treated with a wise-cracking teen kicking ass while being mentored by Bruce. People would have been pissed and the show would never have gotten past the first season. Hence the addition of BEYOND to the fucking title. However, this almost never exists elsewhere in capeshit outside of limited alternate universes like the 2099 comics and the Mangaverse. In fact it's even MORE confusing when it comes to Western comics because you have the "Spectacular" Spider-Man, the "Amazing" Spider-Man, the "Sensational" Spider-Man, and so on. With all those titles, you'd think it would all be about different "Spider-Men" characters but, NOPE, same guy, just different series. Marvel sort-of solved this issue with the Ultimate series, but I hear that started suffering from the same issues. And, that's including all the mishaps where they keep using the same characters (I don't mean "same characters" but different universe, I mean 100% the same characters in and from the same universe) having all of this comics resetting to zero every other year, which creates even more confusion. (And, I don't buy the "You don't have to read everything that came prior because they designed the comic around being an 'entrance' for newcomers" excuse because the series immediately starts using characters that haven't been seen in decades or referencing past events that predates the current happenings in the comics that are suppose to be for newcomers). >>311278 >If they were smart, they'd move entirely to a graphic novel model, since practically all stories are "written for the trade (paperback)" anyway, which means they're all like six issues long. Instead of putting out over 52 issues per month twelve months a year, they'd be better off putting out like two graphic novels per week. It's not just the magazine model. it's also the money involved. If they sell 52 comics for $5 a piece, that's $260 gained for all 52 comics selling one copy. Compare that to 9 graphic novels (Got that number from supposing that they compile all 52 comics into 6 different graphic novel lines, leaving us with "9 series) selling for a maximum of $20, for a total of $180 earned for selling 1 copy of all 9 series. On paper, the former "magazine" model method brings in more money, and that's all that comic publishers really care about. And, if they were to start following the "graphic novel" method, they'd probably fuck it up and demand that the novels sell for $30 a pop so that they can maintain their near $300 figure. And, keep in mind, manga volumes are selling for $10.
>>311379 >It's based around digital monsters, that come from another dimension, and have a master that they befriend and serve in order to gain power so that they can fight bigger and bigger threats. And Spider-Man is about a young guy who gets bitten by a special spider and then gets spider-powers which he uses to fight crime. That doesn't mean Miles Morales is the same as Peter Parker. But at least at the start they followed the pretense of Miles trying to live up to (Ultimate) Peter's legacy. >And, what about the fact that V-Tamers and Adventure (The earliest Digimon media, with the former starting just four months prior to the latter) have the same Taichi, who go on two widely different adventures? My point exactly. It's even more disconnected, but they expect kids to go "oh, he has the same name and the same hair, so I should like him the same even though they are in no way the same character besides name and costume. And I love V-Tamer (and obviously Adventure), but what I'm arguing against is that capeshit is somehow more prone to treating characters as just titles and costumes than Japanese equivalents. >Also, a Digimon's name is it's species. You just mentioned V-Tamer, so you should know better, considering the main Digimon there is a V-Dramon named Zero. Some Digimon have real names. But it doesn't change my point that obviously Savers had an agumon for marketing reasons, as if the audience would like this agumon as much as the one from Adventure just because they have the same name and appearance. >Also, Digimon is based around those v-pet toys that were popular from over a decade ago. That doesn't change the point from a storytelling perspective. That's like saying you can just make Optimus Prime a title and have other characters take it over. Hasbro tried that shit to a degree with Rodimus Prime, and everyone hated it so much they had to bring Optimus back in the final few episodes. But then Japanese Transformers proved my point even further by having Ginrai, another guy in a body that looks exactly like Convoy and is the leader, and we're supposed to like him just as much just because he has the same appearance, the same costume. And they do effectively just make Optimus's body a costume since he's a Headmaster. At least when American Transformers did Beast Wars, they had the decency to heavily reference the previous Optimus and Megatron and show how their namesakes are effected by their legacies. Those namesakes are treated as wholly their own characters, and not just guys wearing an old costume. >No, they establish that it's a different Kamen Rider RIGHT IN THE FUCKING TITILE. There's V3, Black, W, and so on. And, as other Anons have pointed out, those characters still exist. No shit. Anyone reading The Flash or whatever will know it's a different Flash, too. But the fact that they're even more disconnected is not a point in favor of arguing that they treat the characters under the mask as less disposable. It's exactly the opposite. They change all the time and the characters don't even have connections to each other, and we're just supposed to go "it says Ultraman/Kamen Rider/Gundam/Digimon, so even though it has nothing to do with the characters and story and world that I liked from the previous version, it has the name and appearance, so I guess I like it." >If you're going to have a Batman series, people expect Batman to be Bruce Wayne. This is my point. It's like we're arguing the same point. The points you're actually arguing against are the points the guy I was arguing against made. The characters under the costume are important. You can't just swap out Bruce Wayne and expect people to still like it just the same just because it's called Batman. >However, this almost never exists elsewhere in capeshit outside of limited alternate universes like the 2099 comics and the Mangaverse. So your only problem is when they don't change the name of a series when a new guy takes the role? This seems like a very minor thing, and it only matters to absolute casuals who don't actually consume the media. To them it might not matter who is dressed as The Flash. To anyone reading, they'll know immediately if it's Jay or Barry or Wally or Bart or the other Wally. You'll notice that actual readers tend more to talk about characters by their real names instead of their aliases, unless they're talking to casuals who wouldn't know who Wally West is, and knowledge of multiple Flashes isn't important to the conversation. >In fact it's even MORE confusing when it comes to Western comics because you have the "Spectacular" Spider-Man, the "Amazing" Spider-Man, the "Sensational" Spider-Man, and so on. Agreed. This is a major problem and never should have happened. It gets even more confusing since Ultimate Spider-Man actually is a different guy, but he's also called Peter Parker and looks very similar but is from a different universe and has a different story. At least people could mostly understand what the "Ultimate" line was, but of course it didn't work out long term, and here we are. I still recommend it to newbies as a decent way to start reading capeshit comics though, since it was easy to follow and generally good at first. By the time they get to when it becomes lame, they'll be autistic enough to understand the main universes.
>And, I don't buy the "You don't have to read everything that came prior because they designed the comic around being an 'entrance' for newcomers" excuse because the series immediately starts using characters that haven't been seen in decades or referencing past events that predates the current happenings in the comics that are suppose to be for newcomers You're also correct with this point. There are times when there are good "jumping on points," but it can be hard to tell what they are. The New 52 was heavily marketed as such a point, but there were plenty of major series that didn't work like that, including the super successful (and thus enticing to newcomers) Batman and Green Lantern series (which each had like six series each). Action Comics and Justice League started with origin stories (and Action Comics' origin story happened before Justice League's even though each of its issues came out a week after Justice League's issues), but then after six issues or whatever transitioned to "present day" and technically all the old stories happened between the origins and then. Granted they didn't heavily reference them, but still. Also Superman had multiple series and the rest all happened in the present. Characters starring in multiple series is fucked. The entire premise of releasing monthly issues but each issue is only part 1 of 6 or 1 of 52 or 1 of 150, and also the characters all cross over even though each issue ends on a cliffhanger so there is no logical way to work out the order of events until a year later when all the story arcs are done and you can look at them in retrospect. It's all fucked and they need to cut back massively and also just ditch the magazine model entirely. Also, part of the issue is that you really don't need to read "everything" that came before, but you do need a certain level of knowledge of past stuff. And good luck finding where precisely that knowledge should come from. Once you reach a certain point you can read most of whatever and understand it, but good luck reaching that point. > If they sell 52 comics for $5 a piece, that's $260 gained for all 52 comics selling one copy. Compare that to 9 graphic novels (Got that number from supposing that they compile all 52 comics into 6 different graphic novel lines, leaving us with "9 series I looked at it with the assumption that a graphic novel is about the length of six issues, which is basically the standard right now. Instead of each series doing 12 issues per year (though really they tend to do 13 with annuals, and the annuals are a little longer), they could say each of those 52 series does two graphic novels per year, or 104 graphic novels per year, or two per week. But wait we end up with the same numbers. But regardless, yeah you're right, they're stupid and only think short term. They'd make more money from people being able to follow the damn material and actually buy it in regular stores, and frankly, I think there would be a lot more people who would actually buy everything, since GNs at least feel more like a complete product. But yeah, they would fuck it up in many ways, not the least of which is price. Also, like manga, they should be selling a lot more cheaper material in black and white and cheaper paper. Color does impress normalfags, but so does value. I have tons of Showcase Presents and Marvel Essential volumes, because 25 issues for like $10 or whatever they used to sell for was actually a great deal, even if they were in black and white. Especially since they were in black and white because the color wasn't even good on a lot of those old comics. But people didn't buy them, probably partially because of the lack of color. Maybe also because they were still confusing, and even though they were mostly numbered logically, nobody is gonna buy a later numbered volume unless they can find the earlier one, and finding them could be hard. But they still need to do a proper online subscription service that actually contains every issue they have the rights to. I can live if they're missing that one issue of Marvel Team-Up where Spider-Man teams up with The Not Ready For Prime Time Players (an issue they can't reprint probably because Bill Murray is a dick), but there's no reason to just be missing random stretches of other issues. Any ones that are missing should have a damn good reason.
>>311404 >That's like saying you can just make Optimus Prime a title and have other characters take it over. Actually "Prime" is a military title in Transformers, and the "Prime" title did transfer from Optimus to Hot Rod (Who became Rodimus Prime) in the film and follow-up TV series. >and everyone hated it so much they had to bring Optimus back in the final few episodes What people hated was how their favorite characters were all slaughtered on screen with zero remorse. While the writers thought it was a creative idea with it being an allegory for Hasbro ending the original toyline and bringing in the new toys, the children in the audience were livid and horrified over seeing Optimus pass away. Compare that to how they replaced the entire cast between Transformers Prime and nuRiD with little issue. >Anyone reading The Flash or whatever will know it's a different Flash, too. Not the people who haven't read The Flash since the original issue in 1940. All they know of is Barry Allen, they don't know about Wally West or Bart or Jay Garrick. Same thing with Green Lantern; they know about Hal Jordon and possibly John Stewart, but don't know about Allan Scott or Guy Gardner. All of these characters are just known as "the Flash"/"Green Lantern". There's nothing to differentiate one from the other. You WILL know the difference between the characters if you've been reading their comics since '40s, but no one 30 years afterwards will know nor care to get involved with that mess. And, we're coming up to almost a century of DC autism. >But the fact that they're even more disconnected is not a point in favor of arguing that they treat the characters under the mask as less disposable. That doesn't stop the current crop of writers from trying. In fact, IIRC, immediately after the death of Superman back in the 90's, DC did replace Superman with four copies of the character (Two of them literally being clones). >They change all the time and the characters don't even have connections to each other, and we're just supposed to go "it says Ultraman/Kamen Rider/Gundam/Digimon, so even though it has nothing to do with the characters and story and world that I liked from the previous version, it has the name and appearance, so I guess I like it." You KNOW they're different characters despite the title, however. There are different Ultramen, Kamen Riders, and Gundams; all with different names and designs. They hearken back to the original concept, but they're not the same and that's to the benefit of those series. You're not going to mix up Unicorn Gundam with G Gundam or the original MS Gundam. Same with rest. >The characters under the costume are important. You can't just swap out Bruce Wayne and expect people to still like it just the same just because it's called Batman. And, you cannot pass the mantel with making sure that people are aware that it's not Bruce under the cowl. >So your only problem is when they don't change the name of a series when a new guy takes the role? This seems like a very minor thing It's called marketing. And, believe it or not, it helps make things easier when trying to sort shit out or trying to sell it. >and it only matters to absolute casuals who don't actually consume the media In other words, it's a brilliant idea that will result in comics finally getting back a market and making a profit again instead of relying upon the extremely niche group of retards who will consume whatever shlock is produce because they've spent 30 years of their life trying to sort through all this shit and don't want it all to go to waste. >You'll notice that actual readers tend more to talk about characters by their real names instead of their aliases, unless they're talking to casuals who wouldn't know who Wally West is, and knowledge of multiple Flashes isn't important to the conversation. So, the small handful of people who have read through 80 years of an entire comic publisher's catalog. >I still recommend it to newbies as a decent way to start reading capeshit comics though, since it was easy to follow and generally good at first. By the time they get to when it becomes lame, they'll be autistic enough to understand the main universes. You do realize that your argument boils down to: <You're going to feel so defeated after reading the series, that you'll only want to continue just to see how much more you can suffer. >Characters starring in multiple series is fucked. An issue that would be solved if they had each of the different series focused on a different character. We've established that there's four Flashes and four Green Lanterns, right? Well, have the regular series focused on each of the different Flash characters. Use the three different Flash/Lantern characters for their own exclusive and independent series, and use the remaining one exclusively for the crossover stuff. >The entire premise of releasing monthly issues but each issue is only part 1 of 6 or 1 of 52 or 1 of 150, and also the characters all cross over even though each issue ends on a cliffhanger so there is no logical way to work out the order of events until a year later when all the story arcs are done and you can look at them in retrospect. It's all fucked and they need to cut back massively and also just ditch the magazine model entirely. Something I've seen suggested is that they go the route of having several different "branded" magazines in a similar method to how mangas are published. Basically, for example, you have Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, and all the other crossovers in one big telephone book; similarlly, you have Batman, Green Arrow, the Question, Nightwing, and all the "human" characters in another telephone book; Joker, Bizarro, Deathstroke, Lobo, and other villains get their own telephone book; and you publish that monthly. Keeps everything much easier to read and sort out, and probably lowers manufacturing costs to. >They'd make more money from people being able to follow the damn material and actually buy it in regular stores, and frankly, I think there would be a lot more people who would actually buy everything, since GNs at least feel more like a complete product. Having it in a graphic novel format would also help solve the problem of different characters all being the same hero. With a graphic novel, there's a solid order to follow and a definitive beginning and end point. Even mangas are published with a solid "ending" to some extent. For example, Dragon Ball did end in 1995. That was a solid ending and a completed story. Everything afterwards can be ignored or treated however you wish, but the series did come to an end. And, a complete product that you can point to if anyone wants to get into DB and understand what it is all about. With the way things are now, the "closest" people get are just advising you read runs by certain authors, but that just creates a patchwork of the series that doesn't really solve anything and leaves much unexplained. >but there's no reason to just be missing random stretches of other issues I've trumped it up to the companies not giving a shit, and need look no further than how there hasn't been a single reprint of any of the Detective Comics issues released prior to issue 27 (When Batman debuts and hijacks the comic).
>>311453 >Actually "Prime" is a military title in Transformers But Optimus isn't. But they do a good job with establishing he's a hero and in the future other people are named after him. But Optimus Primal is very much not Optimus Prime, and heavily references the original Optimus Prime. >What people hated was how their favorite characters were all slaughtered on screen with zero remorse. While this is one aspect, it only touches on the real fact that Hasbro didn't realize that the audience would actually care about the characters as characters and not just as representations of a franchise. This is why they would later start giving characters new bodies but saying they were still the same characters, so that they could sell new toys while respecting the fact that people did respect them as characters and not just as names and appearances. And this started in the comics. You can give Bumblebee a new body and change his name to Goldbug, but as long as the readers knew he was still the same character, they were okay with it. Get rid of old characters entirely and just expect everyone to be okay with it since there are new transformers instead? No, that doesn't work. >Compare that to how they replaced the entire cast between Transformers Prime and nuRiD with little issue. Never watched it so can't comment on it as much. Isn't Bumblebee a carryover to RiD2? Frankly, I could never keep up with all the constant Transformers reboots in the 2000s. The franchise moved in the Japanese direction starting with Robots in Disguise, just rebooting shit all the time (even though I know Robots in Disguise/Car Robots is technically G1 universe in Japan), and I just didn't care, since it wasn't the same world anymore, and I didn't like the series just because it was called Transformers and had characters with those names and appearances, I liked the characters and world from the original continuity, and the new ones didn't win me over. They would have had to win me over from scratch. But note that even this example again shows that western stuff treats the characters more as personalities rather than just names and appearances, since they felt the need to mash three separate anime series into the "Unicron Trilogy" so that audiences would feel some sort of connection between them instead of needing to win them over with brand new characters and worlds every time. >Not the people who haven't read The Flash since the original issue in 1940. All they know of is Barry Allen, Jay Garrick, actually. Barry is the one from the '50s. But if they pick up an issue with Barry, they'll immediately see it's a different character on the cover. Also, note that The Flash was rebooted a decade after the series was cancelled, and he was the first example of a comics reboot. DC assumed the series was for kids and kids wouldn't remember or care. But then they got a bunch of angry letters saying they wanted Jay Garrick back, showing that people not only cared about the characters and not just the titles and costumes, but they cared about characters who were cancelled due to low sales a decade earlier. In response, they invented The Multiverse, and the crippling disease known as autism was born. >You WILL know the difference between the characters if you've been reading their comics since '40s This is no different than your examples with Kamen Rider having different subtitles. Here they have different names. If you can understand that Kamen Rider V3 is different than Kamen Rider W, you can understand that The Flash Barry Allen is different from The Flash Jay Garrick. Your complaint being that the titles of the actual comics don't say that they're different people seems like it's not the real problem. The comics are from different times, and in most cases the characters look very different. The exception is the fact that Wally wore Barry's old costume (with some minor changes that I wouldn't expect most people to notice), but that was a story point, and when Barry came back, they eventually gave Wally a different costume to solve the issue. And it's not like it changes often. The problem is the way the writing is handled. The original Flash of Two Worlds and really all of Barry Allen's run is easy to understand even when dealing with multiverse shit and having him team up with Jay Garrick. It's just after the Crisis on Infinite Earths they stopped caring about writing in a fashion that regular people could understand. The titles aren't the problem, the writing is. >You're not going to mix up Unicorn Gundam with G Gundam or the original MS Gundam. Same with rest. Mixing up Hal Jordan with Kyle Rayner is not the problem. I don't see how you think it could be. If a casual can hear about Gundam and then understand that (practically) each one is completely unrelated to all the others, they can understand that Green Lanterns are space cops and there are a lot of them but only a few main ones. You think a casual is going to just assume that Gundamn XYZ is a completely different continuity than Gundamn 123? No, they'll need it explained to them. If they can handle that level of explanation, they can handle that there have been several generations of Flashes and Blue Beetles. The only thing that makes that confusing is the specific way stories are written. Old stories from the '80s and earlier wrote in ways that made it less confusing.
>It's called marketing. And, believe it or not, it helps make things easier when trying to sort shit out or trying to sell it. I agree that they make it confusing, but not because it's hard to tell who the starring character is. They make it confusing because they keep just making new volumes with the same names as before, but they don't make clear on the cover of every damn issue what volume number it is. Back in the day it was annoying but rare, like Green Lantern Vol 2 was the reboot series about Hal Jordan instead of Alan Scott from Vol 1. Also DC figured nobody would remember Alan Scott from a series that failed ten years earlier. Now they restart numbering far too often. Especially at Marvel. And it's not like they restart numbering at reboots, like with Green Lantern vol 2 (because real reboots don't actually happen anymore), they just start a new volume whenever they want a new #1 for a single issue boost in sales. Back in the day they never renumbered. When The Flash rebooted in the '50s (the first real comics reboot) they continued the numbering from the old series that was cancelled a decade earlier. It was fine. It was a very successful series for 30 years and is now considered a classic. At that point, if you can understand that Barry has been Flash for 30 years, you can understand that at a certain point he dies and his sidekick grows up to replace him. What is harder to understand is when someone tells you to read "The Flash #1," and you have to ask which one because there are like six different comics titled "The Flash #1." If they just kept one set of numbers the problem would be helped immensely. I understand casuals might be intimidated by a high number (even though they didn't used to be) but a new #1, even with a different title, is just misleading if it isn't a full reboot. And if it is a full reboot, why would I want to read it? I could just read the original, or I could read a new concept. There's a chance it's good on its own merits, but I'd have to be convinced all over again. There's no point to making it a full reboot unless you're just trying to sell me on things as shallow as the name and costume. Even making Wally West's Flash Vol 2 start with a new #1 is misleading, because he was Kid Flash for like 25 years and all that history is still canon. There were 350 issues of Flash before Vol 2 #1, and they're still canon. Calling it #1 is just misleading, and anyone picking it up will see immediately that it actually carries tons of continuity. Same goes for The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive with Bart Allen. New subtitle, new #1, technically a Vol 1. Bart was still Impulse for over a decade and 66 years of Flash history, 70 years of DC history, was still canon, and you'd see it was as soon as you touch that "Vol 1 #1" issue. Again, the problem is writing just making it more confusing than it needs to be. Not because of the continuity existing, but because of how it's referenced and how new stories are structured around it. >And, you cannot pass the mantel with making sure that people are aware that it's not Bruce under the cowl. Don't worry, it won't happen anyway. People will still want Bruce back, and they'll always want Clark Kent to be Superman, and Peter Parker to be Spider-Man. There are some characters that are too damn big and just irreplaceable. The Flash works because nobody really cares about him except comics nerds anyway. >In other words, it's a brilliant idea that will result in comics finally getting back a market and making a profit again instead of relying upon the extremely niche group of retards who will consume whatever shlock is produce because they've spent 30 years of their life trying to sort through all this shit and don't want it all to go to waste. No, casuals aren't going to understand it any better if you call it "The Flash: Wally West." The autistic shit they need to sort through will still be there and still be a problem. It comes down to writing. >So, the small handful of people who have read through 80 years of an entire comic publisher's catalog. No, anyone who actually reads the stories. It goes just as well for characters who don't have multiple iterations. If you actually sit there and read Spider-Man, or watch the movies, you'll just naturally start thinking of him as "Peter" because that's the actual character's name, and Spider-Man is just an alias. This might not apply equally to every series. Maybe to Golden Age stuff where the character's secret identity is less important, you won't care as much. But the character's secret identity and that life and personality being more important has been the status quo since the 1950s. If you actually read or even watch any Barry Allen stories you'll just naturally think of him as Barry Allen because the stories treat that aspect of him as important, and The Flash is just a shield he uses to stop supervillains from finding out who his loved ones are. This is standard for like every superhero ever except the ones who don't have secret identities, and thinking of them as their real names goes double for them. >You're going to feel so defeated after reading the series, that you'll only want to continue just to see how much more you can suffer. No, my point with the Ultimate Universe is that it's actually cool and easy to understand, and well before the point where it became lame, you'll probably just go "fuck it" and start reading stuff outside of that universe, because you'll realize things aren't as complicated as they seem.
>An issue that would be solved if they had each of the different series focused on a different character. Yeah but I don't want four different Spider-Man series starring four different Spider-Mans. But don't worry, Marvel is getting there, since they have Miles Morales in his own Spider-Man series and Peter Parker in a different one, each with different names. But that's stupid too. They just shouldn't be so greedy as to make so many damn Spider-Man series. The problem is also seen in characters with too many spinoffs about sidekicks about supporting characters and stuff. Batman might technically only star in Batman and Detective Comics (though probably there are more and I just remember right now), but it does no good if Nightwing and Robin and Batgirl and 10 other related characters all have their own series and Batman is a supporting character in all of them. Also he's usually on at least two Justice Leagues at once. This wasn't a problem until more recently. Back in the '80s and '90s, if Wolverine went to Japan in his solo series, he left the X-Men in the X-Men series. He was only in both when it made sense, and even then, it was only two series, and one was specifically a team up series. Now they just don't give a fuck and Wolverine is in ten different places at once every month. >We've established that there's four Flashes and four Green Lanterns, right? Well, have the regular series focused on each of the different Flash characters. The different Green Lanterns do have their own series. The basic status quo for like 15 years has been that "Green Lantern" is about Hal Jordan on Earth, "Green Lantern Corps" is basically a buddy cop thing about Guy Gardner and John Stewart doing space stuff, and also Kyle Rayner frequently has his own series like Ion or New Guardians where he does weirder stuff. Flash is less complicated because it's a generational thing like The Phantom. Jay Garrick is an old man who is a supporting character in a mentor role in the main series. He might also have a significant role in Justice Society of America. Barry Allen was dead for 25 years and treated as a legacy for Wally to live up to. When he came back they sidelined Wally for a while before just making it so Wally had a co-starring role in Titans while Barry was the star of The Flash and also appeared in Justice League. Sometimes Wally would be a supporting character in Barry's Flash series as his old sidekick who is now off doing his own thing with the Titans but sometimes comes back to help. Bart Allen was Wally's sidekick when Wally was Flash, and eventually grew up and became real Flash for a while, but nobody liked it so they brought Wally back and Bart went back to being a sidekick forever. It's not like there are four different Flash series going on at once. Flash is actually easy to follow in that regard. The problem is when there's one character starring in four series. Not when there are four characters co-starring in one series. >Something I've seen suggested is that they go the route of having several different "branded" magazines in a similar method to how mangas are published. Anthology series used to be the norm for decades, but over time, each one got taken over by one breakout character. My first thought is that it would be a good idea. Instead of selling Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, and Batwoman, as six different series, sell them as one series with a higher page count. They're all related anyway. However, then I remember that magazines are a dying medium and would remain a dying medium anyway. >Having it in a graphic novel format would also help solve the problem of different characters all being the same hero. Is this you still being mad about there being four generations of Flashes? GNs wouldn't solve that problem. They'd have the same stories in the same order, just six issues would be sold as one GN. >With a graphic novel, there's a solid order to follow and a definitive beginning and end point. Even mangas are published with a solid "ending" to some extent. For example, Dragon Ball did end in 1995. That was a solid ending and a completed story. Everything afterwards can be ignored or treated however you wish, but the series did come to an end. And, a complete product that you can point to if anyone wants to get into DB and understand what it is all about. With the way things are now, the "closest" people get are just advising you read runs by certain authors, but that just creates a patchwork of the series that doesn't really solve anything and leaves much unexplained. This is again a problem of writing. Barry Allen's story "ended" at the end of The Flash Vol 1. He was reunited with his true love, retired, and went to live a private life away from the world the stories typically follow. Then they did the immediate sequel of The Crisis on Infinite Earths. If you didn't know that existed, Flash vol 1 would have been a good ending. But then Barry got called out of retirement for one last job, and died. So that's also a good ending. They do say that Wally is going to take up his mantle, but you don't need to actually see that if you don't want to. But of course they did actually tell those stories, so you can go and read those if you want. You can start with just his first arc where he is getting used to it, and consider that "origin" arc to be the end of the story, since it confirms that he will be the new Flash and the legacy will live on. Or you can consider the next arc or be the next one. Or the next one. Or the next one. GNs just organize it in a way that's easier to sell, and if they were made as GNs first instead of monthly magazines, it would make crossovers easier to follow, instead of making them the incomprehensible mess they are today. But the reason they're like that today is because stories almost always last longer than one book (while they used to be able to fit two or three stories in a single issue). At least with a GN they could fit more in a single book, and hopefully have more books that are a whole story, even if there is a sequel after.
>>311280 >I question heavily the amount of sales that come from services like that. Their prices are outrageous, it's not as comfortable as reading a physical book, and if people were still reading the new shit, they'd probably be talking about it, and the series wouldn't keep getting cancelled. If those services do make any sales, they're probably all for old comics that might actually be harder to find, instead of new shit that comic shops can't even give away. I'm not talking about sales of old comics, because that's a completely different matter. That's a n odd comment to make. Have not realised how much Kindle and other such services make these days? Shit's insane. People these days don't give a fuck, they just prefer reading off their phones or pcs because they are effectively growing up to hate paper. And yes, admitedly, it's old comics. Even the jewtube channels that try their best to shill new shit always go >In the end, I also brought all the old comics, those are amazing for 5 minutes straight in a 10 minute video about a "replacement" hero like Miles. >Just like how fans hate all the modern SJW shit that the capeshit companies have been doing. Nobody accepted Riri Williams as Iron Man, or Jane Foster as Thor (and she was a well established character). They didn't even accept Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel, and she was a classic character there from day one, and one who logically would make sense taking the mantle, but it was written like shit so nobody liked it or accepted it. See, here's the difference : Marvel doesn't give up and is losing money, constantly. So it DC and they try to push either an agenda or they keep printing those stories because at this point the entire structure of Marvel is build on Nepotism and that money must flow somehow. Boruto on the other hand has scrapped a lot of things in the manga, is rushing to its endgame and unless the ratings fall, the anime will continue but due to the fact that anime have this amazing thing that fans both in the east and the west hate, called "filler" that often fucks continuity and established things down the line, they discard it. You can't exactly do that in comics. Plus, if Boruto is hated enough, it won't be reprinted and it'll disappear, like many manga before it yes, it's not the first this has happened something impossible for something like New Captain Marvel who's pasted on 5 different title, has two titles of her own I think and all of them are uploaded on the net on both fan sites and Marvel's official sites. >I've seen the original Ultraman. I kinda doubt it given what you double down on. But maybe a long time has passed by and you have forgotten. >Go read the first Hal Jordan Green Lantern story and watch the first episode of Ultraman. It's the same shit. I have read that and it's not. Green Lantern is a bout a test pilot of the Airforce doing cool shit and finding a dying alien that passes on to him his alien gadget to "become" the Green Lantern. Ultraman is an airforce pilot flying around before getting attacked by an alien and then Ultraman bumps into him and kils him. So Ultraman, feeling guilty about it, bonds with him to revive him and for some episodes, Hayata doesn't even know that he can "transform" into Ultraman. Another thing is that Hal Jordan IS Green Lantern, Hayata is not Ultraman. Ultraman is Ultraman, he's just bonded to Hayata. They're different characters and only during the course of the show do they reach a common understanding and that's why the ending hits so hard, Ultraman's final stand against the Zetton Alien : Hayata is a man who died before and is ready to give his life once again while Ultraman was afraid to die and even the bonding process is a half assed measure because in order to properly revive Hayata, Ultraman would have needed to give up his life. Instead, he now chooses to stand along with Hayata and properly protect the Earth. Ultraman is a mix of various other already existing toku heroes who are bumbling people who happen to awaken an ancient force to "transform" into someone else. If anything, Ultraman is far closer to something like Captain Marvel / Shazam! Again, Ultraman the Next is very much Green Lantern on purpose but that came much later.
>>311500 >If you didn't know that existed, Flash vol 1 would have been a good ending. I forgot to comment on that but this is a sad truth. Supergirl Vol.1, Flash Vol.1, Wonder Woman Vol.1 and I think even Superman Vol.1 would have been the perfect "good endings" to these characters if not for CoIE. Which makes it even worse when you realise that all of these people, sans Superman, fucking died in CoIE yes, it's Earth 1 Wondy that died and Earth 2 Wondy became a Goddess of Olympus in her place
>>311453 >It's called marketing. Therefore, it is cancer.
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>>311275 > When a western superhero gets replaced, it's typically sold as following the story of the world and the previous character's legacy. And in most of those cases, the writers and editors completely fuck it over on a literary level. Not just because of tokenism, as is the recent major cause. It's because they, like many other selfish fanfic writers, put their own desires over the weight of the story they're attempting. Issues like Batman Beyond, where the original themes that created Bruce Wayne are successfully handled are the exception and hardly the rule. Legacy themes and passed mantes only work when there's effort involved (Mask of Zorro), or when it's actually built into the title itself (The Phantom, Dr Who arguably). Most of the time capable writers know this, and opt to pitch retreads instead, like the five or so series on X-Men (and sometimes fuck that up—see also TMNT). >Meanwhile, Japanese shit just goes "this is Kamen Rider now. Oh come on, now. >"You like it because it's called Kamen Rider, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the previous series that you liked. Just forget those old characters you liked. They don't matter anymore. They don't exist anymore." Hey, remember when I made that emphasis about most Japanese writers knowing how to END a series? This is the exact reason I made that statement. This is a sense of attachment that is not good to cultivate—the idea to hold on desperately to a concept or story that has already reached a logical conclusion is absurd by and large, with most efforts to continue beyond that point clumsy at best, and typically disastrous. I'll give an easy example for this: Pretty Cure season 1 is regarded simultaneously as the best and the most awful of the seasons, because the creators were flying by the seat of their pants creating it. They did not in any way plan for Futari wa Precure to become a runaway phenomena that rivaled the sentai shows and broached Sailor Moon levels of domestic popularity. Toei ordered another two cour for the series when there was NOTHING to write, because the titular heroes had successfully and thoroughly beaten all the bad guys. The result is that the last half of Futari wa Precure drags out to an insane degree. Characterizations are lampooned. Plot idiot balls (to sadly borrow a tvtropes shit phrase) were held for episodes at a time. Most grievous was that personal issue plots were not resolved the entire time. There was a strong C plot about Nagisa's crush that never went anywhere, and likewise a thread concerning Honoka's abandonment issues with her overachieving parents that equally died stillborn. There was a third Cure shoved between the two with little sense and lots of proverbial ducttape. It was slow, it was bland, it was beyond clumsy, and most fans breathed a sigh of relief that it was over... ...and then Toei ordered 56 more episodes which became season two: Futari wa Max Heart. It made the effort—the writer's certainly tried,—but it was more of the same cour 2 dreck. That was the point the project heads wised up so that when another 56 episodes were ordered, they went entirely fresh with the Kinda-Futari-wa-but-not-really Splash Star. Which did much better, and built a likeable, fun, and endearing new cast for fans to love. And they kept doing that with loads of success to this day. There comes a time when you have to let an idea go. You have to be willing to put the kibosh on a project and go to the next one. If you want more material, then cook up something as a fan. And if it absolutely HAS to be a renewed property, then one has to be smart about the effort. Many times, that ability is beyond the staff at Marvel & DC. They will get a Terry McGuiness here and there, but a large majority of the time it's tokens, edgy hijacks, or a fictional grudge against the previous comic writers put on page before the whole world (Ice Man and Iron Heart, and also Falcon as Captain America). People do praise Enter the Spiderverse, but when you break that film down to its base components, it's a by-the-numbers "you got the juice now" story except that Miles is overshadowed by the endless cameos and Fat Peter's C plot. Miles wasn't even allowed to carry his own film, and that's one of their better efforts. It says a lot about the state of the cape industry.
>>311453 >the children in the audience were livid and horrified over seeing Optimus pass away. I was in the theater. I cried. But I hold to this day he went out like a fuckin' HERO. But unlike a lot of other kids, I accepted it and moved on. Bringing him back in that 3-part TV event was the silliest shit to me, story-wise. Rodimus for all his early fuckups was doing a good job. Optimus had already fulfilled his role. I look back on that time, now, with clear image of what Micheal Bay and Hollywood has done to the Transformers name, and I can't help but think maybe all those Autobots getting massacred was actually a blessing since they didn't live to see what became of their legacy.
>>311945 >Hey, remember when I made that emphasis about most Japanese writers knowing how to END a series? This is the exact reason I made that statement. This is a sense of attachment that is not good to cultivate—the idea to hold on desperately to a concept or story that has already reached a logical conclusion is absurd by and large, with most efforts to continue beyond that point clumsy at best, and typically disastrous. I geniuently hate stories that try to keep up the status quo without actually leading to any conclusion. You can say that WoW has been destroyed by SJWs, but even if it wasn't, the simple setup of the story would not allow it to develop. The setup for a story which is supposed to go on forever NEVER WORKS and will break apart eventually. Whether it is capeshit or anything else.
>>310648 Gundam is a very different case because it doesn't so much tell a story of a character but because it tells a story of a solar system. It's a story about HISTORY at the end of the day. There isn't really a problem with continuing it for a long time because our own history keeps trecking along. If someone made a sequel to LOGH, he could do it in a good manner by just continuing historical plots from it. Gundam is not as character-centric as superhero comics.
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>>310648 And when PreCure does gay characters, that's not their entire personality.
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>>312044 Japs are good at writing gay characters because they are not burdened by political bullshit. They just write them like any other romance. And that's fine. You don't need to screech about how progressive you are. Sexualise Romanticise And humanise Don't write your gay fucking characters as anything else than just people. Don't write them as political fucking pieces. If both conservative fucks and SJWs shut the fuck up about media this wouldn't be a problem. You could have completely straight romances for straight people, hot anime boys romancing each other for gay/bi guys and straight women, and hot anime girls romancing each other for gay/bi girls and straight guys. I do not believe anyone would make a big fuss about it. If you don't like it, you either tolerate it if you like the work enough, or don't fucking engage in the work. It's so fucking simple, just stop giving a shit about this meaningless bullshit. Neither gays, nor straights, nor bi fucks annoy me. The only people who actually annoy me are the ones who force their shit onto others and try to control what people can or cannot write, or what they can or cannot do. This shit isn't difficult, we had this figured out for years. Personal responsibility to an extent where we can push for it and "Don't fuck me, I don't fuck with you", but it's getting worse and worse with every single year as people put their stupid fucking "identities" over their freedoms, other people and even themselves.
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>>312044 what the fuck, they made a show out of those loli doujins?
>>312050 >As much of a cat as a human is an app It's head looks identical to a cat head.
>>312051 >a human is an app woah dude, what if we are inside a phone?
>>311554 >That's a n odd comment to make. Have not realised how much Kindle and other such services make these days? Shit's insane. People these days don't give a fuck, they just prefer reading off their phones or pcs because they are effectively growing up to hate paper. Digital is obviously necessary for there to be any future for the industry. However, the digital services out there for comics right now are god awful. Due to the nature of comics vs pure text, the services need to be better than those that sell pure text, both on a technical readability level, and also in a sorting and categorizing level. But all the services out there fail miserably at this, as well as at price, which is the most important factor. Print comics also fail on price, and then digital comics sell at the same price, which is just ridiculous. >And yes, admitedly, it's old comics. Well those aren't what is in question. Those don't incentivize the publishers to continue commissioning new material, but rather just to make it easier to buy the old material, since there's so much that is still difficult to buy digitally, let alone in print. >See, here's the difference : Marvel doesn't give up and is losing money, constantly. So it DC and they try to push either an agenda or they keep printing those stories because at this point the entire structure of Marvel is build on Nepotism and that money must flow somehow. Yeah, but I was never defending Marvel or DC here. I was talking about the fans and the essences of the characters. Nobody who likes comics or capeshit will defend Marvel or DC, especially with the shit they've been doing in the last few years. The last few years are a crazy outlier where the entire industry has literally been conquered by a cult that hates all the material the industry made before and is deliberately seeking to not only destroy it economically, but to destroy its legacy. The comic book industry is fighting supervillain-tier anti-logic and pathological hatred that has successfully infiltrated it and begun controlling it from the inside. But fans can still tell that Doomsday Clock is a sequel to Watchmen and that Watchmen is still good on its own regardless of later retardation in sequels, the same way fans can tell Boruto is a sequel to Naruto and people can like Naruto without worrying about Boruto. >Plus, if Boruto is hated enough, it won't be reprinted and it'll disappear, like many manga before it This has also traditionally been the case with western comics, except for those times when some uber autist would come along and try to make something out of shit. But just constantly pushing shit everyone hates is again due to the SJW cult and is not what happened until the last few years. Until the last few years, everything was directly about money, which was good because it meant they necessarily had to listen to the audience. Shit people didn't like would literally get erased from history. Flashpoint erased Superman's marriage. Everyone hated it, so Rebirth changed history so Superman was always married again (and they doubled down and gave him a kid, too, which people also liked). Flashpoint also tried to reboot Wally West into a kid sidekick again, and also he was black now. Everyone hated it so they said the original Wally still existed the whole time and the black kid was just his cousin also named Wally. They used to listen to the fans and things fans didn't like disappeared. Those two examples were both from like five years ago. The SJW shit is really very modern. And yes, it's why the entire industry must be mercy killed. But it doesn't reflect on the entire history of everything before it. It doesn't reflect on how things always worked, and what the fans always liked. >Green Lantern/Ultraman I think your differences are somewhat surface level. That's not to say I don't understand why they're actually important and result in different stories, but it is to say that the similarities are too much to ignore. I can also appreciate the difference between Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner, but if they did the same basic story but didn't call Kyle Green Lantern (and didn't specifically refer to Hal) I'd still call it a ripoff. Of course the differences between them are a big fucking deal to fans, but the similarities are unmistakable. >Ultraman is far closer to something like Captain Marvel / Shazam! It's even closer to Captain Marvel/Captain Mar-Vell, specifically during the era when he was bonded with Rick Jones and Rick could trade places with Mar-Vell for limited periods of time so Mar-Vell could fight crime or whatever. And that came after Ultraman, so if anything, Marvel ripped that off. >>311958 Rodimus got to be a bit cooler in the G1 comics continuity, even though he only showed up in a few stories since the comics never did the time jump to the movie era (but did occasionally show the future and do a lot of time travel stuff in the UK comic). Also, there are convention exclusive stories that take place between G1 and Beast Wars, as well as after Beast Machines and have G1 characters like Rodimus interacting with Beast Machines era guys. They're pretty cool. >>312026 The trick is understanding when a story ends even if it has sequels. I don't care about whatever gay shit is happening in Daniel Craig Bond movies. I can enjoy Connery Bond just the same. And yes I know they claimed Craig was a reboot but then he had the same M as Brosnan so wtf? Anyway I don't need to care. If I hated Brosnan but liked Moore my point would be the same. >>312035 >Gundam is a very different case because it doesn't so much tell a story of a character but because it tells a story of a solar system. It's a story about HISTORY at the end of the day. This is actually one aspect of the DCU in particular that I think goes understated. There is an actual story to the entire multiverse that largely goes unappreciated due to the Rain Man-tier autism required to understand it, but it is interesting when you get it, and it couldn't exist without the absurdly long form storytelling with tons of different series and endless reams of material all adding to the details of the world and characters that contribute to the world.
>>311945 >And in most of those cases, the writers and editors completely fuck it over on a literary level. I strongly disagree. Again, the most notable examples are The Flashes and Green Lanterns, and those have all been considered relatively successful. Bart Allen got promoted too early and it didn't stick, but whatever. They put things back the way they were before and it was fine. Even Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern, while controversial as a concept at the time, proved to actually be good, and though Hal was brought back, Kyle was still kept around as a respected and well liked character. Outside of the recent SJW shit, most examples are reasonably well done. There are some replacements of more minor characters that didn't stick, like I guess the female Wildcat and Dr. Light from the '80s, but nobody even gives a shit about the original versions of those characters, so whatever. And they both got brought back, so it's fine. The replacements were okay, too, just not great. Stargirl is a well liked replacement for The Star Spangled Kid. >This is a sense of attachment that is not good to cultivate—the idea to hold on desperately to a concept or story that has already reached a logical conclusion is absurd by and large, with most efforts to continue beyond that point clumsy at best, and typically disastrous. Fine, but then don't call the next thing Kamen Rider or Ultraman or Digimon or whatever, since the only things they have in common are surface level attributes and not the characters or sometimes even worlds. The claim was that western capeshit sells characters as only names and costumes, but clearly japanese material does that to a much higher degree. Now you're moving the goalposts away from that argument and saying it's good that they do that. Fine. But that isn't what we were originally arguing about. Originally you were arguing the opposite. >Precure fucked up after the writers ran out of ideas, so therefore it's bad to have legacy characters and better to just have completely unrelated stuff that tries to sell itself purely on having the same name and surface level attributes as an older work Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Precure might have become shitty after the writers ran out of ideas, but that isn't a necessity. Now, there is certainly a case to be made that a story that is thoroughly planned out before it is published can be better, because it can be more carefully planned. But then this is just an argument against all ongoing series. Ongoing series are popular all over the world. Western comics also have plenty of limited series, that are more planned out from the start. But okay, we aren't talking about those. On the topic of ongoing series, I can accept that there are different stories. Some might be better than others. Few people would argue that most of the major capeshit characters had their best stories written by their original creators. Nobody is arguing that the best Batman stories were by Kane and Finger. I like having those later Batman stories that are now classics, or even a bunch of later ones that aren't considered classic but I enjoyed. Not every episode needs to be a classic for me to like a show. Ongoing comic series are basically like tv shows. While some shows are planned from the start (and are basically limited series even if they're multiple seasons long) some aren't, and that's fine. While The Simpsons should have died a long time ago, its glory years were well past the point where the original showrunners left the show to new people. I'm glad we got Seasons 6 and 7, even if they're really different from 1 an 2, and even if I wish that Season 30 never existed. Because really, I can just not watch Season 30. In fact, the entire world has decided just to not watch Season 30, and that's fine. We can still go and watch Season 7. It's still good, even if it wasn't part of some original plan drawn out before the series began, and even if the series eventually got really, really shitty later. >They will get a Terry McGuiness here and there, but a large majority of the time it's tokens, edgy hijacks, or a fictional grudge against the previous comic writers put on page before the whole world (Ice Man and Iron Heart, and also Falcon as Captain America). It's sad that you are only familiar with the SJW era of capeshit. I highly recommend a lot of older material. For a newfag, go pick up basically any issue from the '70s to the mid-'80s and it won't even be too autistic to understand, but will also probably feel modern enough to not feel dated. There was good shit, including legacy characters (since by that point Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Red Tornado, and others, were all on their second generations, and those second generations are all now considered more classic than the originals, though the originals are also well liked). It continued good for a lot longer than that, too, but it did get autistic and harder to understand. >There comes a time when you have to let an idea go. You have to be willing to put the kibosh on a project and go to the next one. If you want more material, then cook up something as a fan. This is very true, but the sad reality is that these characters, and sometimes very specifically "these" characters (and not alternate versions of them seen in adaptations or whatever) actually do mean something. Superman, whether you like it or not, does actually represent things, and a story that uses a Superman analogue (of which there are very many) just will not hit precisely the same way. There is a value to these characters and these universes, and it's sad that they're owned by heartless and evil corporations. There are reasons to want to tell a story with Superman and not "Power Guy" or whatever. There are reasons to want to tell new stories about Dracula, about Sherlock Holmes, and Frankenstein, about Hercules. And people have been doing that for centuries, and many of those later stories are good, despite not being planned from the start. >Enter the Spider-Verse Again, new SJW shit. The sad part about the legacy characters is that they're hard to adapt, because if you don't establish the previous generations first, then the legacy won't have the same impact. But no series have been long running enough to do this. The DCAU could have done it, but Flash and Green Lantern weren't important enough to bother with. They were just guys on a team-up series. The CW shows could have done it since they had a Flash series, but that's the CW. Even if they had the balls to kill Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El in the Crisis on Infinite Earths like they should have, since those are two of the main characters on their shows and the two characters who famously die in that story, Barry would have been replaced with that black Wally and it would have been awful SJW shit, which it was anyway. And Supergirl would have just found some new way to be uniquely awful. There have been no adaptations that have successfully done legacy characters, and your examples like The Phantom and Zorro don't work either because in not only did nobody alive even remember The Phantom by the time that Billy Zane movie came out, but the specifics of the previous Phantom weren't important. It was just an aspect of the origin story that there are generations of Phantoms. It's not at all the same as seeing Wally West be Barry Allen's sidekick for 25 years before finally doing what was always implied but never spoken, and filling his mentor's shoes when he inevitably died in battle. Zorro being a mantle was also a new thing to that Disney adaptation, and not itself a story that was adapted from previous media. It's more akin to Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible than it is to Ted Kord becoming the Blue Beetle.
>>312049 Sorry, you got to live in Sad World where you are either a religious puritan, or a religious puritan (subversive marxist). Apparently you cannot pick a 3rd option.
freedom of expression is effected first and foremost due to the retarded mindset of "All art is political." An idea mostly pushed by subversives to try and legitimize propaganda as "Art"
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>>312078 Not all art is political, but some propaganda can be art, if they are extremely good at convincing the people to do/think what the propaganda author wanted. Take this poster for instance, it was used in the first world war, to convince the public to join a war, they really didn't have a stake in, and it has been ingrained in the minds of people so much, that every time someone does a parody of a recruitment poster, they use this as a template, while some do it unironically.
>>312060 >sometimes very specifically "these" characters (and not alternate versions of them seen in adaptations or whatever) actually do mean something. Superman, whether you like it or not, does actually represent things, and a story that uses a Superman analogue (of which there are very many) just will not hit precisely the same way
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>>312081 Pretty iconic, even if they did somewhat copy it from the Bongs
>>312085 Not an american, but wasn't aware of that. Apparently you are right and there were a lot of imitations of that British poster.
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>>312078 If all art is political, then there's an overwhelming amount of left-leaning shit; I fail to see nuanced art (especially now) that suggests otherwise. The modern political cartoonist is what's making your media.
>>312060 >I strongly disagree. You're welcome to. We're not gonna see eye-to-eye on this point. Mostly because the same writers who put the material you're raising to pen, are the same writers that not only held the door for the current crop, but gave them carte blanch to fuck so many things up in the two companies. So responsibility does lie with them as well as the execs and editors. And aside of even that, for every good legacy pass you can produce, I can probably squeeze out a regrettable Summers kid/cousin/sibling or another Magneto baby or—well I'd say Xavier's kid but Marvel is steadfast on insisting Proteus never happened, last I recall. >Fine, but then don't call the next thing Kamen Rider or Ultraman or Digimon or whatever, since the only things they have in common are surface level attributes and not the characters or sometimes even worlds. Actually in Precure's case, the girls all share a lot of common traits on the count they're supposed to be, at core, relatable to young children. On top of that, the foundations of what makes a Pretty Cure, as well as what a Cure would fight for also don't stray, even if the theme switches per season. The only fluctuating factor is the level of violence, which lessens every season after Heartcatch. Point being the franchise functionally establishes that Precure isn't a personalized crusade—it's a knight's order without near the level of dogma and rules. At its core, that's what a mantle should represent: a code that no matter who dawns it, will find their own way of adhering to it. It's why the Batman bit rarely works—Dick and Terry were the closests of the Bat fam to actually stick to Bruce's scruples and honor. But they differ still enough that I'd hesitate to call them Batman. >Precure fucked up after the writers ran out of ideas, so therefore it's bad to have legacy characters and better to just have completely unrelated stuff that tries to sell itself purely on having the same name and surface level attributes as an older work < While The Simpsons should have died a long time ago, its glory years were well past the point where the original showrunners left the show to new people. I'm glad we got Seasons 6 and 7, even if they're really different from 1 an 2, and even if I wish that Season 30 never existed. Because really, I can just not watch Season 30. In fact, the entire world has decided just to not watch Season 30, and that's fine. We can still go and watch Season 7. It's still good, even if it wasn't part of some original plan drawn out before the series began, and even if the series eventually got really, really shitty later. You missed my point, here, and turned right around and proved it, anyway. You won't catching me arguing about how good/better/bad a work was after its driving staff leaves—that kind of thing should be self evident with every project published. But there is very clearly a line where those in responsible roles leading said project should take one long look, and go "yes, this has run its course. It's time to put the lid on it." The Simpsons passed that point almost a score ago. And the Pretty Cures, for their role, haven't seen that point yet (I say so tentatively, because I see Tropical Rouge and Hugtto and I am worried), but they may soon enough. Honoka and Nagisa's story, on the other hand, have long since been told. And then retold. And that's fine. We can go and hit rewind if we need to in order to relive those moments. >It's sad that you are only familiar with the SJW era of capeshit. I have enough knowledge of the past. It's just the current year shit stinks that hard that it's near-impossible to ignroe. It's like seeing Stephanie Meyer making millions off that grade level stalker book series, knowing it had no damned right producing any kind of monetary return at all. Life™, sadly, has seen to it that all I have left are memories, given nothing of my childhood outside of vidya has survived the years. >Superman, whether you like it or not, does actually represent things, and a story that uses a Superman analogue (of which there are very many) just will not hit precisely the same way. You are absolutely right about this. Where we differ is you hold on to the hope that a competent writer will come along and get access to the man in blue long enough to make him shine like he rightfully should. And I admit I don't disbelieve or even not hope for that, myself. I'm just of the pragmatic view that shackling fifteen-hundred other writers/artists who actively HATE everything he represents to his IP, when they could be out there writing their own stories to victory or failure, is entirely counterproductive to his symbol, his story, and hell, even his franchise. Instead of keeping him high and flying when he obviously can't, we shelve him. We keep him as a customary ornament for a while, and feed the youth who ARE interested in him his stories. Then when the smoke clears and all the contrarians, sycophants, and narcissists have fucked up royally over the interim, we take that writer and let him truly revitalize that symbol, and the other symbols. Then it becomes fresh, new, and present for future generations to love, while the haters stay quiet having finally had their fair shot to fuck up or succeed outside the shadow of the evil "legacy heroes" I'm of the school of giving them all the rope they need to hang themselves.
>>312083 Yes, there are examples of characters that are based on other characters that are good. Watchmen is an example. I didn't say that you can't make good original characters, I'm saying that the stories you can tell with the pre-existing characters are different than the ones you can tell with characters that are obviously supposed to represent them but are not. Countdown, for example, would not have worked as a story about Nite Owl or some other new character based on Ted Kord. It specifically builds on his history both in-universe and in the real world, as a character not very well respected by the public in the DCU or the public in Earth-Prime. A new character based on him would not have that history, and the story could not be told. That's not to say it's as good a story as Watchmen, but that's not my point. My point is that it's a story that couldn't exist if you couldn't use Ted Kord, and if you didn't have the actual DCU and its history. You couldn't even do an adaptation of it in a different medium without that adapted continuity previously adapting a lot of the history that is required to make the story work. And note that I'm using Blue Beetle as an example because he's the character Nite Owl is based on, but of course Blue Beetle does not have the literary or symbolic significance of more major characters, since he's a D-lister. I mean, I'm personally a fan, and if I had an opportunity to work at DC and do some Geoff Johns or Grant Morrison type autism where I explain the literary significance that is there but has never been pointed out, I would. But because of copyright, I can't, and making a Nite Owl-like new character that is obviously based on Blue Beetle but technically isn't just wouldn't be the same. Now multiply this effect about a thousand times for A-list characters, and especially for Superman, who is pretty much universally recognized as a symbol in real life just like in-universe. He's so recognized as a symbol that I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people don't know he's an alien, they just know he represents heroism and goodness and all sorts of other things. When you just make a character based on him to try to evoke the same feelings, it's just not the same. Many, many creators have done that, but it just isn't the same. There's also the fact that Superman has underlying nietzschean connotations mixed in with all the above, but changing his name to Overman or whatever would immediately change which connotations are more prominent also DC already did that for the alternate universe where Kal-El's rocket landed in Germany instead of America. Then you also have all the histories of his supporting characters and what they represent. Did you know the word "Brainiac" as a nickname for a smart guy comes from the supervillain, and not the other way around? So having a Brainiac stand-in called Computron or whatever just isn't the same. Like it or not, even a character as secondary as Brainiac still has significance. And of course there is more significance that will only be understood if you read more of the universe and see all these other stories the characters have been in, because those incredibly rich histories can be used for more stories, both by explicitly referencing details from them, but also by simply informing the audience's knowledge of the characters and context. To just have a story where it's like "Look, you know this guy is supposed to be Superman but we legally had to change a ton of details" simply is not the same. Sometimes those stories can be good, but they're not the same, and sometimes those stories that can only be told with the actual characters and not stand-ins are also good. The Justice Guild definitely would have been better if it was the actual Justice Society, though, so I don't see that as a point in your favor. I never read Wanted or watched the movie.
>>312110 >I never read Wanted or watched the movie. The film and the comics are two completely different stories. The comic is about how all the DC and Marvel villains decided to team up, kill all of the heroes in the world, and then are spending the rest of their lives just chilling. The film (and follow-up video game) is about a secret league of super assassins that dictate the power players of the world.
>>312098 >the same writers who put the material you're raising to pen, are the same writers that not only held the door for the current crop, but gave them carte blanch to fuck so many things up in the two companies. So responsibility does lie with them as well as the execs and editors. Debatable in many cases. However, I don't think it matters to the quality of the good stories they wrote. They don't retroactively become bad even if the creator does something I don't like later. >And aside of even that, for every good legacy pass you can produce, I can probably squeeze out a regrettable Summers kid/cousin/sibling or another Magneto baby or—well I'd say Xavier's kid but Marvel is steadfast on insisting Proteus never happened, last I recall. You prove my point. The lame ones just don't get referenced much so their negative impact is minimized. Sometimes they get redeemed and actually become cool. The good ones get to stick around and have good stories. Works for me. >Actually in Precure's case, the girls all share a lot of common traits on the count they're supposed to be, at core, relatable to young children. Yeah, and the Green Lanterns all have common traits because they're supposed to be marketed to the same universe. They also have in-universe reasons for their shared traits (those traits are why they become GLs in the first place) and they have a shared history and universe, so again, I don't see how one can argue that capeshit is more prone to sell series based on name and costume more than Japanese shit. All you're doing is just now saying "well actually they're not COMPLETELY different" but the point is that western stuff does a lot more to establish that there are reasons to follow the series more than just the fact that a character has the same name and costume and other surface level attributes (like morals or whatever). In addition to those things that both western and eastern do, western stuff also says that yes, the old guy is gone, but you get to see how his legacy affects the world even after his death. You're still following an actual story. The story is what is sold. Japanese shit doesn't expect you to give a fuck about the story. It expects you to just buy the next volume even if it is unrelated but just has similar themes. That's not to say that things like that can't still make good products, but to take those two ways of doing things and then say that capeshit treats the characters are MORE expendable, and values only the name and costume, is ridiculous. Japanese material is clearly more often closer to that accusation. >It's why the Batman bit rarely works—Dick and Terry were the closests of the Bat fam to actually stick to Bruce's scruples and honor. But they differ still enough that I'd hesitate to call them Batman. You hesitate to call them Batman because Bruce Wayne himself is such a well established and iconic character, which again proves my point that the claim that American stuff treats the actual characters as more secondary to the titles and costumes than Japanese stuff is ridiculous. Also, considering Bruce was Batman for 70 years and tons of popular adaptations before Dick became Batman for an extended period of time, naturally it would take time for Dick to become solidified kek in the role. It took like ten years of Wally West Flash stories before they stopped being very often about how he still didn't feel like he was the real Flash, and those ten years were still well liked stories, as were the next 15 years. Dick's run as Batman was well liked too, and if they kept it going I bet it would have continued being successful. But it was always intended to be a temporary part of a longer story arc. Also, Batman is extra tricky because they're always gonna do adaptations and those adaptations are almost always gonna be about Bruce Wayne because that's what people know, and because to do an adaptation about a successor would mean you'd have to establish who the original was anyway. Then people would watch an adaptation and go to buy a comic and get a book that wasn't about the guy they were expecting, and that's a problem from a marketing standpoint, but not from an artistic standpoint. A bunch of people probably bought Arkham Asylum and then bought comics only to find they were about Dick Grayson, and they were probably confused, and it was a stupid move on DC's part as far as marketing goes. But those Dick Grayson stories were still good.
>But there is very clearly a line where those in responsible roles leading said project should take one long look, and go "yes, this has run its course. It's time to put the lid on it." The Simpsons passed that point almost a score ago. Yes, but if you act as if that point is only as far as the original planned story goes, then we'd be left with like two seasons of The Simpsons (and not even that because the original planned story was a 30 second Tracy Ullman short and the rest was made up as they went along), and nobody would argue those two seasons were the best ones. We'd miss out on the best ones. >It's just the current year shit stinks that hard that it's near-impossible to ignroe. You're heaping complaints that are very specific to modern shit to things that came out 30-75 years ago. (And the complaints don't even apply to things even ten years ago.) They just don't fit. I am still very much able to enjoy those older stories, but you don't seem to know what you're missing out on if you think they're all like new shit. >Life™, sadly, has seen to it that all I have left are memories, given nothing of my childhood outside of vidya has survived the years. Vidya hasn't survived any better than anything else. It's also pozzed to hell. But in all cases, you can go and enjoy the old stuff, and you'll find more than you can ever consume in a lifetime. That guy from the Twilight Zone who breaks his glasses didn't have time to read all the good books 60 years ago. We have much more media to consume now, even if we ignore the shitty stuff. In fact, ignoring the shitty stuff is necessary, so we can see more of the good stuff. They're trying to block it out of your view, but you can't let them. It's still there and you can still have it if you want. >Where we differ is you hold on to the hope that a competent writer will come along and get access to the man in blue long enough to make him shine like he rightfully should. There have been very good Superman stories even in just the last few years. The number of worse ones that creep in has increased, but I can mostly just ignore those. They mostly get swept under the rug when the next writer comes along, since everyone including that writer knows everyone hates those stories. The bad ones get swept under the rug and the good ones stick around. Maybe it helps that I'm still like four or five years behind, and it's probably gotten worse. But I've just ignored the last four or five years not even on purpose, but just because I don't have the time. It's easy to ignore the bad stuff. > the shadow of the evil "legacy heroes" My problem here is that you're lumping in characters like Wally West in with Riri Williams, and that's just wrong. Hell, Barry Allen and Hal Jordan are "legacy heroes," and they're the most iconic versions of Flash and Green Lantern. Many legacy characters are good. Most are good. The recent shit that has been going on is very recent, and much more popular at Marvel. That Future State shit DC pulled has me figuring that maybe I'll just count Dark Kights: Death Metal as the end of the DCU. But it won't retroactively make me hate Ted Kord just because he's the third Blue Beetle). >I'm of the school of giving them all the rope they need to hang themselves. They're doing that anyway. Nobody thinks of Riri Williams as Iron Man, or Jane Foster as Thor. They don't even think of Miles Morales as Spider-Man. They have to keep being told to think of Miles as Spider-Man, and that wouldn't happen if they already thought of him as Spider-Man. They never had to tell anyone to think of Peter Parker as Spider-Man. Everyone hates Carl Manvers so much even though Mar-Vell was a C-list character who died in the '80s after a string of failed series where he was drastically retooled multiple times. People don't even know the previous Captain Marvel and they still don't accept Carl Manvers as him. These people are hanging themselves, and they're kept on life support not by the idea of "legacy characters," but by a literal cult that is determined to destroy the entire industry, including their own jobs. So be it. Let the industry die. But it doesn't retroactively mean that Guy Gardner is a bad character. >>312119 How the fuck did that happen? How did Mark Millar sell that comic and then somehow make the movie based on it so absurdly different?
>>312059 >Well those aren't what is in question. Those don't incentivize the publishers to continue commissioning new material, but rather just to make it easier to buy the old material, since there's so much that is still difficult to buy digitally, let alone in print. My point was that they bring profit and can sustain a publisher. Sure, it doesn't incentivise the publisher for new material but given the shit you've seen so far of capeshit can you honestly even say that encouragement or discouragement in the 21st century, when it comes to capeshit, was even a thing? > But fans can still tell that Doomsday Clock is a sequel to Watchmen and that Watchmen is still good on its own regardless of later retardation in sequels, the same way fans can tell Boruto is a sequel to Naruto and people can like Naruto without worrying about Boruto. You must be talking about a few people at /co/ or something because that's not how the world, at large, operates. I can guarantee you if Naruto was genuine capeshit, from the US, the westerner readers would gobble up Boruto unlike now where the stigma of manga forces them to think apart. Same shit for a few of the more autistic Yuroanons, mainly in the UK. >This has also traditionally been the case with western comics <except for those times when some uber autist would come along and try to make something out of shit. Except you're missing the point. I've read comics, I know all the things you listed that happened but that's not what I'm saying. Unless manga copyright laws get absolutely fucked or the publishing houses of Japan get absolutely brain-NIGGERED like in the USA, you're probably not gonna see Boruto if enough fan hatred ever exists for a variety of reasons, one of them being that there's no cultivation of a collector-centric mindset in order to save those issues like in the USA nor is there a constant need to re-re-re-re-republish the same shit over different magazines over the course of what is by now, effectively a century for some characters. If it doesn't sell, they just don't reprint it in Japan, that simple, pure capitalism. And even if that was the case for one lonely collector autist in the west, he'd have to : >Go to Japan >Buy all the volumes >Upload them >Hope someone cares for them >Hope some other autist who cares about them also translates them With the latter of these being nigh impossible in happening if the memory of how shit Boruto was is even recent. Even if it's some ultra autist in Japan, he can't even do most of those things since he'd have to upload the raw Boruto pages on sites outside of the Nip internet sphere which defeats the entire purpose of him uploading what he had on the net since none of his fellow /a/utists will just not see it, from his perspective. Again, IF Boruto is hated enough. Some manga that have been hated enough have suffered the same fate. And if it's manga and shit that has you stuck and trying to argue against me, I'll point you to movies instead : >The JoJo Phantom Blood movie >I think your differences are somewhat surface level. I really don't get your insistance on that, what do you want me to do, boil them down to the essentials? I already did that : Green Lantern >Pilot >Space Cop >Space Cop dies >Pilot gets his fancy ring and becomes a new superhero >The themes of his story come into prominence years down the line of his publication Ultraman >Pilot >Space Cop >Pilot dies >Space Cop fuses with pilot to resurrect him >Space Cop is still the superhero >The theme of the hero comes into prominence at around episode 35 or something and tries to reach its logical conclusion. If we boil them down even more than that, we're back to having hissyfits and spergouts just like back when /co/fags and /a/utists arguing about whether or not Goku is Superman with the /co/fags never realising why Goku's space pod was a fucking sphere in the first place. >Captain Mar-Vell We're arguing of what Ultraman might have ripped off, not what came later. >>312095 Is it finally time to post Riki-Oh? >>312128 >How the fuck did that happen? How did Mark Millar sell that comic and then somehow make the movie based on it so absurdly different? You've been going on about /co/ shit for so long and this is what's absurd to you? Wanted isn't even the first time it happened, unless you're surprised that it happened with Millar, in which case I can get it.
>>312146 >My point was that they bring profit and can sustain a publisher. Sure, it doesn't incentivise the publisher for new material but given the shit you've seen so far of capeshit can you honestly even say that encouragement or discouragement in the 21st century, when it comes to capeshit, was even a thing? If you're just worried about propping up the publisher at all, even with sales of old material, I wouldn't worry about it. They might sell more of older material, but still not very much. What's really propping them up is the movies. >You must be talking about a few people at /co/ or something because that's not how the world, at large, operates. I can guarantee you if Naruto was genuine capeshit, from the US, the westerner readers would gobble up Boruto unlike now where the stigma of manga forces them to think apart. The world at large stopped reading capeshit a long time ago. Western readers stopped gobbling it up a long time ago. They liked the old stories, didn't like the newer ones, so they just stopped reading them. They even seem to be dropping the MCU now. They liked the movies before, they don't like the new shit they're putting out, and they aren't watching it. >you're probably not gonna see Boruto if enough fan hatred ever exists for a variety of reasons, one of them being that there's no cultivation of a collector-centric mindset in order to save those issues like in the USA nor is there a constant need to re-re-re-re-republish the same shit over different magazines over the course of what is by now, effectively a century for some characters. If it doesn't sell, they just don't reprint it in Japan, that simple, pure capitalism. That's how it works in the US as well. You're vastly overestimating the amount of comics that get reprints. The really famous ones get reprints, and for most of their history, they were few and far between. Collected editions have only become really popular in the last 20 years, and even seeing earlier collected editions from the early 2000s, it's shocking how primitive they are to now, with many still being edited to remove subplots and try to pretend it was not originally part of a serialized episodic series. Even now, when it's common for new comics to get a collected edition after a story arc is finished, that collected edition is very likely to get a single printing and that's it. And those collected editions are essentially trying to sell to a different market of people who don't go to comic book stores, or people who don't buy monthly issues, because monthly issues are a stupid and outdated concept. They should be focusing more on what the collected editions effectively are, which is graphic novels, because the monthly issues are written to fit a graphic novel format in the first place anyway, since the collected editions are more important than ever now (and should be more important than they are now anyway). These reprints aren't republishing old shit, it's essentially just making it available in a different format. Monthly issues are the equivalent of a theatrical release, and the collected editions are the equivalent of a dvd release. But even then, this only applies for new shit, and even that new shit can be hard to find after a short time, even in the collected editions, because they don't necessarily print that many, or reprint them again ever. Reprinting them again ever is actually very rare. And the vast majority of older material has never been reprinted anywhere outside of the original issues. The massively popular series get collected editions of their early issues and some famous stories, but the unpopular ones do not. I don't know where you're getting this idea. Even ones that are cult classics, or earlier appearances of characters who were popular later, can be very hard to find. Go see what the one reprint that Booster Gold Volume 1 ever got goes for on the secondary market, and it's in black and white. Go try to buy any reprints of pre-Crisis Captain Atom or Blue Beetle. These are relatively popular characters, and there has only been a single reprint series ever, in low numbers, which now goes for tons of money on the secondary market. I don't know where you're getting the idea that they re-re-re-re-republish everything over and over. Yeah, you can probably find reprints of the early appearances of Superman and Batman and Spider-Man relatively easily, just like you can buy the first volumes of Dragon Ball and One Piece and Naruto relatively easily. I'm sure you can still buy reprints of early Astro Boy too. Now go try to buy reprints of Animal Man Vol 1. It was unpopular, so even though the character got popular later, making people interested in the old material, I'm pretty sure it's never been reprinted, because it wasn't profitable (and DC is seemingly convinced that even the later arising autism wouldn't make it profitable now). >JoJo Phantom Blood movie Again, I don't know where you're getting this idea that every comic ever is just republished forever. It is common now for companies to try to double dip with small print runs of both monthly issues and then a collected edition (small because nobody fucking buys them, but that's the SJWs making shitty products on purpose), but considering they sell to largely different markets, it makes sense. And it still doesn't happen 100% of the time. And it especially doesn't happen for older material. Like you're almost getting to the point that the American comic industry is fucked by SJWs that keep making shit nobody wants or buys. But again, that's a modern aberration, and it's not correct to act like that's how things have always been, even just a few years ago. >Green Lantern/Ultraman >Pilot >Space Cop >Space Cop comes to Earth >gives power to Pilot >Pilot becomes superhero The fact that the space cop remains his own personality and they just share a body or whatever is a difference and it's cool, but the pilot is still effectively a superhero since it's all about him going to the right place at the right time so that a his body can fight crime even if he doesn't remember it later. That's cool and everything, but to ignore the points that I just greentexted is absurd. They're very specific origin stories that are very specifically similar. Also Goku is Superman. But he's less Superman than Ultraman is Green Lantern. >We're arguing of what Ultraman might have ripped off, not what came later. Yeah I'm not arguing about Mar-Vell, I just wanted to get autistic and point out the trivia that Mar-Vell (or that specific retooling of him) is totally a ripoff of Ultraman. >unless you're surprised that it happened with Millar, in which case I can get it. Yes, I am surprised specifically because it's Millar. He sells a ton of comics to become movies, and I don't get why people would pay him and then just make something unrelated. Like Kick-Ass the movie was a lot better than the comic, but it was still clearly the same thing, at least. Also, even the most unrelated to the source material /co/ adaptations I can think of are still a lot closer than what you described. It's one thing to say Bane works for Talia and Ra's is only immortal symbolically, it's another to just make a Batman movie that is about guys playing soccer or something.
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>>312150 >The world at large stopped reading capeshit a long time ago. Western readers stopped gobbling it up a long time ago. They liked the old stories, didn't like the newer ones, so they just stopped reading them. They even seem to be dropping the MCU now. They liked the movies before, they don't like the new shit they're putting out, and they aren't watching it. Oh, is that why they go apeshit over My Hero Academia then? Is that why whenever a nip artist does capeshit they flock to it and demand american reprints? >You're vastly overestimating the amount of comics that get reprints...Like you're almost getting to the point that the American comic industry is fucked by SJWs that keep making shit nobody wants or buys. Not relly. Maybe it's because you grew up in America and not in Europe or Asia but your comics not just capeshit gets so republished that it puts even the classic re-publishing of euroDisney stories to shame. And before you go on trying to bring SJWs and shit in this part of the discussion at all, it's not because of that, it's due to capitalism and what used to work back in the day. And other times, it was just to fill the issue and get it published to get a paycheck, like various Superman and Batman stories republished thrice across : >Batman >Superman >Action Comics >Detective Comics >Adventure Comics >The Brave and the Bold And those were monthly titles mind you. And then they got reprints in prenium hardcovers or just got republished into some obscure collection before the online platforms got them uploaded and even then had them classified as different versions due to "colouring", as if it was a case similar to the Killing Joke. And that's an example of just two characters, want me to bring Wonder Woman to that equation? Supergirl? Green Arrow? Or more recent examples like the various Shop-exclusive comics getting reprinted into entire monthly comics for a time just to make more buck with : >Superman : Man of Tomorrow >Wonder Woman : Agent of Peace >Batman : Tales from Gotham or whatever it was called, Bahman has a fuckton of books for no reason <Muh Animal Man...Again, I don't know where you're getting this idea that every comic ever is just republished forever. Congratulations, you found one that isn't reprinted endlessly. Nor did I ever argue that eevry comic ever is doing that. I said it happens and of course more often than anyone's willing to be comfortable with. Especially to compare the Japanese and American comic market but that obviously went over your head. Money had to flow somewhat in the pre-internet ages for the comic industry, unless you wanna believe that a lot of times the comcis industry had to survive in pure goodwill in the pre-internet world. Fucking Little Lulu got re-re-reprints compared to the european language versions that had a simple reprint, about 20 years apart since it changed publications at one time in several countries. >The fact that the space cop remains his own personality and they just share a body or whatever is a difference and it's cool, but the pilot is still effectively a superhero since it's all about him going to the right place at the right time so that a his body can fight crime even if he doesn't remember it later. You're being obtuse to prove your retarded point. It's two different characters. Not just GL and Ultraman but Ultraman and the fucking pilot. It's part of the fucking theme. GL does not share that thing. >Also Goku is Superman. But he's less Superman than Ultraman is Green Lantern. If we go by your retarded point and thinking, then Goku is Superman but Superman is also a jewish version of Ougon Bat who might as well have roots to chinese myth and literature that includes Son Goku as well, therefore proving nothing. I get it, /co/shit has been your life but going so far to ignore cultural shit and trying to force a very closeted reality to the rest of the world does not fucking work. Funimation dub may have been Superman but that's just a shitty dub. Goku has NEVER been Superman. Even back when he started flying. Unless you're arguing that Goku BECAME Superman, after Dragon Ball Super started getting published and things got retconned to shit to allow for such a comparisson. In which case, yes, you're right. But I doubt you went thinking that far. >even the most unrelated to the source material /co/ adaptations I can think of are still a lot closer than what you described. What did I describe exactly? Are you confusing me with another anon?
>>312152 >demand american reprints? Derp, western-language reprints
>>312071 It's the natural instinct of humanity. It has always been like this unfortunately.
>>312152 >Oh, is that why they go apeshit over My Hero Academia then? Try following the actual conversation, or at least reading the part that you yourself bothered to greentext. The argument was that people just keep reading (specifically big two) capeshit even once it turns bad and can't differentiate older good stories from later bad sequels. By pointing out that they still like the concepts but ignore bad materials, even if they're sequels to things they liked, you are agreeing with my point, not disagreeing with it. >like various Superman and Batman stories republished thrice across :>Batman >Superman >Action Comics >Detective Comics >Adventure Comics >The Brave and the Bold That isn't what happened. Each of those series published original stories the vast majority of the time. Action, Detective, Adventure, and Brave and the Bold were anthology series that didn't even just focus on Batman or Superman, until the '60s or '70s when Batman and Superman finally conquered them all (except Adventure which was still Superboy and Legion of Superheroes and stuff). I'm pretty sure early Superman (the series) and Batman (the series) did contain reprints of the things that happened in Action and Detective, but that was because they were not monthly titles originally, and they compiled the stories of those characters from their anthology series so you could buy just them instead of buying the anthology series if you just wanted the stuff with the breakout characters. They were more equivalent to collected editions, except they did also have original content in them, which again isn't unheard of in collected editions in either America or Japan. You're correct that sometimes reprints would happen due to things like needing to put an issue out and creators not meeting deadlines, or sometimes a series (particularly a sub-series in an anthology series) wasn't doing well enough to commission new material for it, but was doing well enough to essentially run reruns, since the sales of those reruns would justify the lower cost of printing already existing material. Of course, this also fell out of favor by the '60s and '70s. But regardless, those are not reprinting the same stories forever. A single story would probably not get reprinted more than once, because they had plenty of material for reruns. Again, this is very far from the point that things just get reprinted forever even if people don't like them. Remember that the entire point was the argument that Boruto would go away if people didn't like it, while western comics keep reprinting the same things over and over even if people don't like them. It's the opposite. The ones people like get reprinted, and not even that often unless they're some of the biggest ever. The ones people don't like are usually forgotten forever, and become absurdly hard to find without piracy (and even then, good scans can be hard to find since a lot of these are scans of stories that only got printed once decades ago). >And then they got reprints in prenium hardcovers or just got republished into some obscure collection before the online platforms got them uploaded and even then had them classified as different versions due to "colouring", as if it was a case similar to the Killing Joke. Those hardcovers again, like softcovers, only cover the eariest or most famous stories. Yeah, if you want to find collections of the first few years worth of Superman or Batman stories, you can. Now go look for reprints of any between, say, 1945 and 1955. You won't find them, even for the most successful series. It's easier to find reprints of stories from the late '50s and early '60s because that was the Silver Age and a lot of characters began then. Now go try to find more reprints of stories from the '70s and early '80s. Good luck. For the really big characters, like say Spider-Man, reprints from the era exist, but are much rarer than the earlier ones. For even slightly lesser characters, you won't find them. You won't find very many Superman or Batman reprints from the '70s, aside from maybe Ra's al Ghul's first appearance. You can find some reprints of stuff from the early '80s, again the really famous characters and their most famous stories, but while you can find reprints of Man of Steel and Batman: Year One, now go try to find reprints of the Batman stories that were published immediately after Year One. You wont. Again, the ones people really, really like get reprinted. The ones people don't like, or even the ones that were just regular stories that were fine but not absolute all time classics, are much harder to find. This started to change in the mid-2000s, but that was only because they started marketing more to the bookstore market and moving away from the magazine models. By that point, TPBs were treated more as an alternate way to buy, rather than a collection of old material. And most of those TPBs would never get more than a single printing, unless they were massive successes (which are now basically considered modern classics). Finding reprints of Green Lantern Rebirth is probably still not that hard. Finding reprints of the stories that followed it (except for Secret Origin), while they exist, is harder, because they were printed once, for people who didn't like to buy magazines anymore, and then never again.
>Or more recent examples like the various Shop-exclusive comics getting reprinted into entire monthly comics for a time just to make more buck Timed exclusivity? A very modern gimmick, and still not equivalent to what you're actually arguing. Yeah, they had this material that was printed for a different audience for a timed exclusivity deal, and then reformatted it for a different audience. Not the same as just reprinting things forever even if people don't like them. You're also listing things from absurdly popular characters that everyone's grandma is familiar with. Of course they are more likely to be successful enough to warrant reprints. Even though the "reprints" you're describing here are not at all done for the same reasons that you were actually arguing about. >Congratulations, you found one that isn't reprinted endlessly. Nor did I ever argue that eevry comic ever is doing that. I said it happens and of course more often than anyone's willing to be comfortable with. I've mentioned many, and I'm trying to mention ones that should logically have many reprints. If people can use Precure for arguments, I can use Animal Man. Though you'll notice above, I've also used arguments about Superman and Batman and Spider-Man, characters who are some of the most famous in the world, and should logically have so many reprints that it would be easy to buy any of their stories ever, but it isn't. Only a select few are reprinted in any significant degree, even for those massive characters. >I said it happens and of course more often than anyone's willing to be comfortable with. Especially to compare the Japanese and American comic market but that obviously went over your head. You're comparing the biggest American comics ever and then acting like you can't easily find reprints of the biggest Japanese comics ever. Even outside Japan, it is easy to find endless copies of every volume of Dragon Ball and Naruto and One Piece, despite them all being translated badly, sometimes censored, and marketed toward an audience that almost inherently became interested in the medium through piracy in the first place. I could just as easily use that to say that manga are reprinted forever, but that would be absurd. But the arguments you're making are the same damn thing. Yeah, the massively successful ones get reprinted more. The less successful ones do not. >Little Lulu I'll admit I'm not as familiar with all those old companies that went out of business decades ago. We were talking about capeshit originally, and the capeshit market effectively became a wholly different market a long time ago, exemplified by how they don't even bother to compare themselves to Archie anymore, since Archie kicks their asses in sales so damn hard. >GL does not share that thing. But it shares a whole lot of other things. That's my point. I could also say "well Guy Gardner doesn't have a secret identity and Hal Jordan does, so they're totally different!" Yeah, to fans and stories that's important, but it's ridiculous to overlook the glaring similarities. >Superman is also a jewish version of Ougon Bat Is Ougon Bat an alien who came to Earth as a baby and didn't know he was an alien until later, and it explains why he has special powers? I have been meaning to look into that series more. Also, Superman is a ripoff of Hugo Danner from Phillip Wylie's novel Gladiator. >Journey to the West Yeah obviously. But obviously when people compare Goku and Superman they're specifically comparing the retconned alien origin. Son Wukong is not an alien who came to earth as a baby. Obviously the characters share few similarities beyond that and the fact that they're strong good guys, but the origin story is a notable thing that people can obviously notice. It's not about flying, it's not about their specific powers (Piccolo has eye lasers like Superman. Piccolo is Superman.), people just note the origin story. Like with the Ultraman comparison, you're missing the forest for the trees. >Unless you're arguing that Goku BECAME Superman >But I doubt you went thinking that far. You seriously think anyone would make the comparison in the same way if it wasn't for the retconned origin story? Now who's being obtuse? >What did I describe exactly? Are you confusing me with another anon? Sorry, I should have said "than what was described." Sorry for offending you by using the word "you" on an anonymous imageboard.
>>312128 >Vidya hasn't survived any better than anything else. Nah I wasn't making a philosophical point, there. I mean I stupidly put all my childhood shit and most of my teenage gains in the family storage unit which was then auctioned off because no one paid the bill. I'll get to the rest of these after dinner.
Holy fuck, I expected Maidens to be scummy, but it's Tripwire levels of bullshit: >Everything in the shop cannot be obtained through gaming, you pay in Diamonds, the pay-only currency in the game >each costume is $10 (D2000) >most other unlockables range from $2.50 to $5 (D500 to D1000) >nude/gigantic titties/giant size/misc codes are $20 each (D5000) >some QoL shit is paywalled, the most important one (stash box + share between characters) is $10 (D2000) >You actually pay more than the actual value of things if you buy Standard/Ultimate Edition (around $5~$7 more for stuff that can be free with grind) >there are even limited costumes, the Patriotika one isn't available anymore >worst part is they really, really want the money, you have warnings that your "diamond balance is low", the shop button in the home menu is huge, you have the featured costume shilled right at the start of the game, and even the full HUD during gameplay has a shop button (it can be disabled) >to get everything without overpaying, you obviously have to pay the highest diamond stash available in the shop, D200000 for $369.99, so a fucking console, or a WoW subscription for around 28 months at $13 a month There's even a "Maiden+" subscription (I didn't dare to check the price) and Premium subscription for a 20% discount at the shop >This is a pre-alpha game, doesn't even have multiplayer yet, supposedly in development with only 3 guys on it, and it could potentialy go down any second >it was even worse before, because there even was a stamina limit like a gacha game (unlimited with premium), but they got rid of that
>>312517 >Try following the actual conversation, or at least reading the part that you yourself bothered to greentext. And you should stop ommiting parts of my text as well. Because you very conviniently omit what I showed and what I said later, about nips doing stuff with the american comic characters. For fuckingyears Marvel has been doing it and now even DC hoped on the fray and people went apeshit. > Action, Detective, Adventure, and Brave and the Bold were anthology series that didn't even just focus on Batman or Superman No? Action always featured 1 Superman story, Detective always featured 1 Batman story, Brave and the Bold even had Batman or Superman stories before starting shaking things up, same with Adventure that would feature a Superman story along with a Superboy or Superbaby I don't remember the exact title but it was Superman as a baby before Supergirl came to the picture and Swapped out the Superman story of the month but by then Superman would also get Superman Family as a monthly book and at times even that would feature a story of Superman that was previously published in other monthly series, reprinted with either better lines or slightly better colours, years down the line. >A single story would probably not get reprinted more than once You sure about that? I have counted the story of Wonder Woman traveling to another world, literally getting Isekai'd and she's the criminal there, three times before the 80s. And there was a period before the first reboot of Wonder Woman in the 60s, where every single Mourston story was reprinted before we jumped to the "Modern Era" in Wonder Woman issue 98 I believe? >Remember that the entire point was the argument that Boruto would go away if people didn't like it, while western comics keep reprinting the same things over and over even if people don't like them. It's the opposite. The ones people like get reprinted, and not even that often unless they're some of the biggest ever. I remember but if that's the case then why don't a lot of the stories that did get reprinted in those decades never end up in the collections of "the Best of XXXXX"? What, editorial suddenly decided they were duds but somehow editors back then, able to read barely a hundred fan letters every month knew perfectly well what their adiences loved and were able to sort out the stories that would get reprinted? >good scans can be hard to find since a lot of these are scans of stories that only got printed once decades ago I know, I was part of that, literally almost 2 decades ago. Almost 2. >Timed exclusivity? A very modern gimmick, and still not equivalent to what you're actually arguing. Nope, this was more for desperation because I doubt you would have time exclusivity for 3 to 4 years and print only 1 set of books for those shops. Timed exclusivety was something I saw from other comic publishers at the time, like the Archie publisher but they've been doing something similar with their "special digests" from the 90s or something, maybe even the 80s and in countries outside of the US. Marvel did something like that for the PS4 Spiderman comics I believed but that wasn't the case for the DC titles I mentioned. >You're comparing the biggest American comics ever and then acting like you can't easily find reprints of the biggest Japanese comics ever. Ok, pause a little bit. What do you define as a "reprint" then? Because nowhere did I say that about DB or Naruto or other manga. Specifically, manga get only 1 print, ever. They just keep pumping out that print. A "reprint" of the manga would be the Kanzenban version, a phenomenon happening rarely and only for distinguished manga or for those that shaped a cultural aspect of japan's visual arts. An example would be the "Getter Robo Saga" volumes, 9 volumes including all the Getter Robo stories ever reprinted into one giant 9 volume collection. For the early Getter Robo stuff, that would be the third reprint while for something like Arc, it would be only the first reprint. If you want to count the transition from magazine to volume proper as a reprint, you can do it, it's no problem with me. Because if that's the hang-up and the miscommunication then maybe I fucked up. > Ougon Bat an alien who came to Earth as a baby and didn't know he was an alien until later, and it explains why he has special powers? Ougon Bat is Ougon Bat. When people are in danger he appears, laugh maniacally and trashes everything the villains do, in a similar way early Superman would appear and fuck shit up. > Also, Superman is a ripoff of Hugo Danner from Phillip Wylie's novel Gladiator. I think you mean Captain America. >Son Wukong is not an alien who came to earth as a baby. Not in the "xenomorph from another planet", no but Sun Wukong IS an alien. He is literally born from the Sky and the Earth falling in love and a stone egg falls from the Heavens atop a mountain and what comes out is a creature unlike any other : a monkey. That was before humans would walk the Earth and only Gods and the spirits existed and Wukong would go around shitting in their food and playing tricks on them because the Buddha and the Jade Emperor were fags. He was seen as a monster by the gods and as a trustworthy ally by humans, one of them being Sanzo, the monk who freed him out of kindness, despite Wukong's weird nature because by then, nature had birthed monkeys, so the humans weren't afraid of Wukong. Goku not being a mystical magc monkey and being an alien Spartan instead doesn't make him comperable to Superman, because you shifted the Heavens for Planet Vegeta but nothing changed. He didn't gain any powers from that revelation, he didn't grow because he was always Goku. Superman DID change. He chose to become a Super hero because he IS the Ubermench, because he is Christ at least a bit early on before the 50s just made him Super American Man which I find better And if you want a kick in the nuts, here's the thing : Superman, came out in 1938. Dragon Ball did come out in 1984 and the revelation of him being an alien in 1989 but even back in the 1930s, Japan did try to sci-fi some of their myths, because of the influence of various sci-fi writters back then from the west obviously and they were fascinated by the shit Russians were writting about "the future" back then with their space stations and shit. Just like Ougon Bat transitioned from a semi-mythical hero to one who'd also have sci-fi elements in his stories with his villains, so did some versions of classic folk tales, like Saiyuki, changed.
>>312517 >You seriously think anyone would make the comparison in the same way if it wasn't for the retconned origin story? Yes! Because I lived through it. Nobody was fucking thinking it back then because no country outside of Japan had such a fucked up, atrocious and shitty dub as the american dubs. Ocean, that shitty "Big Green" dub or the Funimation dub, none of the other countries eve reached that level of shit. Heck, most of the dubs even altered or even outripped stripped the series of its Masami Kikuchi score in the first place. Meanwhile, funi babies were the first ones to call Goku superman because of clip related. Gives a bit of a different vibe, doesn't it? Especially when you consider what the "Super Saiyan" is supposed to be in the myth and I don't mean the fact that Toriyama got bored inking the hair and left it "white" and then claiming it was totally blonde And even if you go by the whole origin story shit, who wins in the end? Some folk tale circa 1592 that has been retold god knows how many times or some Messiah analogy from 1938 that happened to feature a "baby sent to another planet by a scientist", some 346 years later? Which becomes even more hilarious when you consider that Goku's father barely aknowledged his son yet the english dub went with "YOUR FATHER WAS A BRILLIANT SCIENTIST" shit that exists in no other fucking language to drive that and other similarities, home That whole Goku = Superman narrative was propagated by america and the american audience and was screeched until it became reality. Just like what those SJWs you hate so much, are trying to do with comic sales. > Sorry for offending you by using the word "you" on an anonymous imageboard. None taken, I was just confused.
>>312049 >hot anime boys romancing each other for gay/bi guys and straight women, and hot anime girls romancing each other for gay/bi girls and straight guys. And that must never be allowed.
>>312583 I remember watching the anime like right after reading the DB manga from the start. Goku's english speech is retarded, the Japanese ironically is exactly what he said in the manga which was significantly more in tune and how he achieved super saiyan. Dubs are shit besides the fact Goku was voiced by an old woman in JP which irked me
>>309376 Oh christ its you again fuck off faggot, nobody cares about your obsession with making sure titties sag.
>>312583 >about nips doing stuff with the american comic characters. For fuckingyears Marvel has been doing it and now even DC hoped on the fray and people went apeshit. Yes. Because it's not being made by people who actively hate the properties and are seeking to destroy them. You're proving my point. A lot of what you're saying seems to actually be agreeing with my point, as if we just got confused a long time ago and have both been arguing against the same thing the whole time. >No? Action always featured 1 Superman story, Detective always featured 1 Batman story, Brave and the Bold even had Batman or Superman stories before starting shaking things up, same with Adventure that would feature a Superman story along with a Superboy or Superbaby I don't remember the exact title but it was Superman as a baby before Supergirl came to the picture and Swapped out the Superman story of the month but by then Superman would also get Superman Family as a monthly book and at times even that would feature a story of Superman that was previously published in other monthly series, reprinted with either better lines or slightly better colours, years down the line. I said they didn't "just" focus on Superman and Batman. They always all had other series in them as well, even if Superman and Batman were the headliners. Each issue had multiple stories in it. That's the point of an anthology series. That's like saying Shonen Jump is just a One Piece series. Also, Superman Family was basically Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen merging with Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane and adding in stories about Supergirl and others while they were at it. Yes, Superman was the most successful comic series of all time and got a lot of spinoffs (but still less than characters like he or Batman have today). One of those spinoffs was his solo series, Superman, and then he also got other spinoffs in other anthology series. But they were still anthology series. They just threw in (original) Superman stories among their others. "Superman" was the only series that was nothing but Superman stories for a very long time (and there have been a few times since when they tried to change it back into an anthology series, though it never stuck), and those other ones were not reprint series, they were more original stories. We were arguing about reprints, remember. >You sure about that? I have counted the story of Wonder Woman traveling to another world, literally getting Isekai'd and she's the criminal there, three times before the 80s. And there was a period before the first reboot of Wonder Woman in the 60s, where every single Mourston story was reprinted before we jumped to the "Modern Era" in Wonder Woman issue 98 I believe? Wonder Woman is an uber-popular character and does not represent the average capeshit. Also, that "first reboot" was only in retrospect. You're actually correct that #98 is considered the first appearance of Earth-One Wonder Woman, but that was only years later after the multiverse was invented and then people started wondering why the characters who never got cancelled in the '50s (including Wonder Woman) were on both the JSA and the JLA if those were different universes, so they had to pick semi-arbitrary points when they could say "actually points before here were a completely different Wonder Woman who was almost exactly the same except she was on the JSA." Even after that, the "Earth-Two" stories are still mostly considered canon for Earth-One, except for things that are explicitly contradicted by later Earth-One continuity. I digress, but my point is that Wonder Woman was incredibly popular, so she would naturally have more reprints than most characters. But still, while you can find Wonder Woman 98 reprinted in black and white in those giant Showcase Presents volumes, which exist specifically to try to make it reasonable to legally read the whole series without seeking out decades old magazines that are now worth tons of money, Wonder Woman 97 is a whole other matter, because it's not an "important" issue. I'm also taking a quick look at the wiki and not seeing that period when every Marston story was reprinted. Maybe it happened after issue 98, which would not prove your point wrong. Or maybe you're thinking of the time in the '60s when fans started complaining about shit getting way too weird, so they promised, in an actual story where all the weird '60s characters were fired by the editor, to bring back the "Golden Age Wonder Woman." But the stories that followed were still original stories, just intentionally more in the style of pre-'60s stuff. Or maybe you're thinking of some other time. I doubt it, but I'm not gonna check every issue for the last 55 years to make sure. Still, if that happened, those would be reruns of popular stories, of the foundation stories of one of the most popular characters of all time. It's not the same as just reprinting things people don't like forever. It's just using reruns to keep a series going during a downturn. It would be equivalent to reprinting the first volume of Naruto a lot, not equivalent to reprinting Boruto a lot, which is what we were arguing about. Marston Wonder Woman stories obviously are not equivalent to a less popular sequel series. >I remember but if that's the case then why don't a lot of the stories that did get reprinted in those decades never end up in the collections of "the Best of XXXXX"? Well the obvious answer is that now there are more to choose from, so some of the previous best would get displaced. The next thing would be that a run of reruns would frequently be a run of stories in order, so the fact that they were reruns wouldn't be as jarring. My third answer would be that those "best of" collections are frequently shit and not the best way to read a series anyway. But they do tend to be stories that people talk about, and ones that would be more likely to sell (at least to casuals who don't realize that reading random issues out of order is rarely the best way to go about things). >that wasn't the case for the DC titles I mentioned. I'll admit I'm not knowledgeable about the specific DC series you mentioned. First, they sound like modern shit, and fuck that. Not only fuck that, but I'm specifically not trying to defend modern shit. Secondly, they obviously are made for casuals and not at all the same audience that keeps up with the mainstream series and universes. Third, none of this defeats my point that this isn't a case of them reprinting things people don't like forever. It's a case of them figuring they have some stories that haven't been marketed to a substantial part of their audience, so they put them in a format that audience might like and see if it sells. It's not the same as just reprinting volumes of Boruto or Carl Manvers to sit on shelves forever out of spite.
>Specifically, manga get only 1 print, ever. They just keep pumping out that print. A "reprint" of the manga would be the Kanzenban version, Tankoban are already reprints, since the vast majority of the series in them are originally from anthologies like Shonen Jump or whatever. So that's two prints, not one ever. Secondly, if you're including eternal printings of that one version to not be a reprint, okay. That also significantly cuts down on the number of "reprints" that I was counting for capeshit. However, it also doesn't seem to fit your point, which seemed to be originally that they just keep trying to sell shit that people don't want, like Boruto. Either way, modern manga and modern comics work very similarly in terms of reprints. It's relatively easy for either to get a tankobon/tpb, and then really successful ones get kanzenban/hardcovers or other special things like that. Older comics used to also get reruns sometimes, if they were successful enough to sell but not successful enough to commission new material. Or sometimes just because the new material wasn't done on time and they had a deadline to meet (before they just decided to fuck deadlines and allow issues to come out late, which is a very modern development). But both of these scenarios were relatively rare, and mostly the case for things in anthology series. Now, all the manga I've ever read were either pirated or in reprints (tankoban or kanzenban), but I wouldn't be surprised if their anthology series have also occasionally done reruns, at least in decades past. Note that that practice hasn't been done in decades in American comics either. >If you want to count the transition from magazine to volume proper as a reprint, you can do it, it's no problem with me. If we don't count that as a reprint, then we can't count it for western comics either, and that does away with like 95% of the "reprints" I was counting for them. If I'm only counting times a story specifically gets published in two different collected editions as a single "reprint," (since the times they're just republished in reruns, while a thing that has happened, was rare back then and is now never done at all), then "reprints" almost never happen at all. Again, a few times for the most famous stories, but those are exceptional. Also, I can think of cases where they do multiple versions at different price points. Like Marvel Masterworks are color collections of the earliest issues of super successful series, while Marvel Essentials are black and whites of the same thing, but with twice as many issues per volume, if you wanna be cheaper. But again, these are for super popular things, and not the equivalent of Boruto. >Ougon Bat is Ougon Bat. When people are in danger he appears, laugh maniacally and trashes everything the villains do, in a similar way early Superman would appear and fuck shit up. Okay, then not the way people compare Superman and Goku, which is the origin story. >I think you mean Captain America. No, Jerry Siegel was asked about if he was influenced by Gladiator and denied ever reading it, but he wrote a review for a fanzine when he was in high school. DC would even just admit it eventually, and when Earth-Two Superman was erased from history after the Crisis on Infinite Earths, many of his exploits with the JSA were now said to instead be performed by Iron Munro, Hugo Danner's illegitimate son, because Gladiator was now public domain and they didn't give a shit anymore. It's pretty well accepted that Superman is a ripoff of Gladiator. Also Batman's first story, The Case of the Chemical Syndicate, is a straight ripoff of a story from The Shadow, Partners of Peril. They just converted it from text into a comic and gave the hero a slightly different costume. >Son Wukong Yeah I'm aware of his basic story. I think you can understand why people would see Goku's retconned origin and draw a closer comparison to Superman than to that. Your interpretation of the gods from Journey to the West as equivalent to the Saiyans or Frieza's army is interesting and totally works (even if I don't think Toriyama thinks that deeply about his ideas), but I'm sure you can understand why the Superman comparison is much more direct. Also, I'm sure you're aware of Supaman from Doctor Slump, which everyone brings up as evidence that Toriyama was a fan of Superman. I don't think that's very strong evidence. But those Superman movies were big in the '80s, and even though the Saiyan arc came out after the piece of shit Superman IV, people all over the world would be highly aware of the first three successful movies, and it's easy to see how a guy doing a comic about a strong guy who just saved the world with his strength might be influenced by this very popular and successful series which was extra popular and successful at the time. So when you see "alien with special powers raised as an earthling so he uses his powers to help earth," the comparison is extra obvious.
>He didn't gain any powers from that revelation, he didn't grow because he was always Goku. Superman DID change. He chose to become a Super hero because he IS the Ubermench, because he is Christ at least a bit early on before the 50s just made him Super American Man which I find better I don't think you know much about Superman, especially Golden Age Superman. Someone in this thread was calling him Super-Jew or something earlier. Not sure if it was you, and not saying I would even agree with it, but christ analogues were not there when Jerry Siegel was still writing him, considering Siegel was jewish, and that Superman's alien origins were almost never referenced in the Golden Age at all outside of his first appearance. The '50s were when they started leaning much more heavily on the alien angle. Even then, I don't think there are many versions of Superman's origin that display him as becoming a hero because he finds out he's an alien. The usual point is that he becomes a hero specifically because he was raised as an Earthling, and specifically an American. Even in the first few years when Ma and Pa Kent weren't really a thing, they didn't talk about his alien origins in any way except to explain his powers, which basically only happened in the first story ever. By the time they started leaning on the alien stuff more, they were very clear that it was Ma and Pa Kent who made him a hero. This is as early as 1945, when they started publishing Superboy stories, and naturally started making the influence of his parents much more important. And in many versions they show that he was already doing hero stuff before he found out he was an alien. >>312585 >dubs Don't think for a second I'm advocating for dubs. I watched the Canadian dub as a kid, but in the last 20 years, have been subs only, and watched DB subbed several times. The point remains that it's absurd to not see a comparison between two characters who are sent to earth as babies and then raised by earthlings so they use their alien powers to defend the earth. Obviously there are other differences, but those similarities in the origin story are unmistakable. It's obviously not that Dragon Ball is a ripoff of Superman, but Goku's retconned origin is absurdly similar, and if it was truly unintentional, that's one hell of a coincidence. I don't even think saying it is a take on it would be an insult, because the twist of making his home planet a planet of bad guys is cool, and one that later Superman stories would dabble with to varying degrees (of course they always eventually reveal that it's not true and they were good guys). But still, that origin is absurdly close. Also, saying Goku's father was a "brilliant scientist" is obviously the dub referencing Superman, but do you think they came up with that out of thin air? they saw the origin story in the first episode and saw that it was Superman's, then inserted more Superman shit. It was stupid, but they almost surely did it because it was already there. The generic hero attitude they sometimes tried to give Goku might have just been bad writing and an attempt to make him more of a generic hero (and since Superman set the template for those, people think of Superman), but the "brilliant scientist" reference is too specific to not be deliberate, and as bad as they are, they clearly did it because they already saw an origin story that was almost as direct a reference. >Some folk tale circa 1592 that has been retold god knows how many times or some Messiah analogy from 1938 that happened to feature a "baby sent to another planet by a scientist", some 346 years later? The one that features an alien sent to earth as a baby who then uses his alien powers to fight for the planet that adopted him. Also he wasn't a messiah analogy until decades later.
>>312570 Yeah that's a hell of a honey trap. No fuckin' thanks, m8. Thank you for your service, anon.
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>>312146 What does Riki-Oh have to do with political cartoons?
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>>313153 It's a pretty funny read especially considering what came out 20 and 30 years after its release which makes some heartfelt moments a bit too comical >>312366
You could make a book out of this thread
>>312570 Wow. The greed of some devs really is off the charts. Any other game come close to this?
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>>313196 When I looked for the monthly subscription prices for WoW, I saw mounts for $25. Technically, the mounts for Maidens are $10 (2000D)
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>Non licensed super hero games. >What is a super hero. >An heroic type character with crazy powers. >Wears a really fucking dumb costume. >Has really annoy sidekick. >Normally his adventures would be rescuing his love interest from his arch foe. Heres your non licensed super hero game anons.
>>313240 You're not wrong. A very large number of games effectively star superheroes. Sonic the Hedgheog has had a comic going for almost 30 years that is effectively just a capeshit comic with furries. Eggman is basically just '50s era Lex Luthor. Mega Man is just Astro Boy, and few would say Astro Boy isn't a superhero. Ratchet & Clank basically become professional superheroes by the second game, with the first being their origin story, specifically about how they replace the old superhero who turned out to be a phony.
>>313196 Probably several chink gacha games. There used to be one called "Rush of Heroes", basically your generic mobile RPG-lite, but with a heavily-stylized "totally-not-WoW" aesthetic (vid related) https://yewtu.be/watch?v=NIy7AdgCSJg One of the systems was that if you paid X amount of money, you unlocked permanent benefits. The highest tier required something in the ballpark of $2100 to unlock. Polite sage for off-topic.
>>313249 >$2100
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>>313246 The moment video games starting putting out heroes it was over for American comics. What we see now with stuff like gay Iceman or black Superman is comic book companies DESPRATE to find new markets after they lost the old one to games. Also I find it fucking hilarious that a Japanese company can do a better Captain America type character than Marvel these days.
>>313250 >being poor
>>313273 The moment video games started putting characters that were effectively superheroes was decades before the stuff with gay Iceman and black Superman. By the same logic, one could argue the ridiculous rise of superhero movies also stole the comics audience, and that tv shows stole the comics audience before that. But that doesn't quite work, because there were popular tv shows and movies about non-DC or Marvel superheroes decades earlier, during the heights of those two companies. Nobody thought Disney's The Rocketeer was making kids not want to read Iron Man comics anymore. If anything, they spark interest in the genre, and thus encourage audiences to seek out that genre, even in other media. No, the real issue is just totally fucked distribution models and other more technical things like that.
>>313533 Anon video games replacing comics took decades but it happened non the less. Not only did game replace comics they also bitch slapped movies and music. It wasnt Super Mario is now a thing lets all suddenly bin our Superman comics it was a gradual leeching of the market but it happened non the less. We are now seeing the final fallout of this. US Comics are actually in the end days.
>>312570 It looks like the same thing with Paprium, from Watermelon Games. Tulio and his mob wanted people to "buy" virtual diamonds to be used to pay for the right to vote on the company's decisions. Anytime that anyone wants you to change real money for fake/virtual money, it is guaranteed to be a scam, just like it was with Watermelon Games, when they simply burned the money and didn't deliver on their promises until heavily pressured to.
>>313533 >if anything, they spark interest in the genre, and thus encourage audiences to seek out that genre, even in other media its not nearly as effective as one thinks, sure interest is sparked but it isn't retained, newcomers check out the book and then leave. And the relation between comics and movie you described aren't share. Good comic sales don't mean an increase in box office tickets to the movies
>>313431 My money stays with me, corporate cuck.
I don't understand why Marvel and DC Comics use this multiverse bullshit in the first place. Do they do this to milk their audiences to see their favorite superheroes for more action or something? >>285414 >Viewtiful Joe Capcom has some good IPs and they don't plan to revive them soon, they are just the same as Nintendo. >>312150 >Also Goku is Superman. At Dragon Ball Z, he is, but he's supposed to be a copy of Sun Wukong from Journey to the West went the first Dragon Ball was around. I don't know why Toriyama included space and alien shit in Dragon Ball Z, it just ruins the mysticism that the first series had.
>>313843 Isn't Journey to the West literally just power-level bullshit through and through? I didn't finish the book because it was so goddamn long but most of it seems to be Sun Wukong fighting gods and getting into trouble for being a literal troublemaking monkey.
>>313843 >Capcom has some good IPs and they don't plan to revive them soon, they are just the same as Nintendo. So highly successful then? F-Zero is never coming back move on Anon.
>>313754 The game itself isn't exactly much better either. The fact that they charge money on a test build is something already terrible, but it's shaped up like some aimless project with ideas executed terribly and meaningless filler. It's basically just >grinding for everything, only paying for premium seems to help >uninspired zones that look more like multiplayer maps than actual MMO maps, everything is symetrical or square >balance fubar, where a squad of level 10-15 mobs are cannon fodder, but a lvl 1 stronghold boss can wipe the floor with you the first time you meet her >the stronghold bosses from the two combat zones have exactly the same moves and voice, one just has more health >combat (as warrior, didn't try the other classes) boils down to one sword combo, an AR and Rocket launcher, and two nukes >a body customization system that is honestly pretty great, but is full of paywalls so there's no point >A story that boils down to "female thanos with daddy issues wants to kill all humanity" >somehow, there's lots of voice acting, like it was the top priority for this kind of game >shitty rewards for shitty daily quests like a gacha game, forcing you to do meaningless shit instead of doing stuff you want It's just a proof of concept, it's not even alpha at this point.
>>313718 >Anon video games replacing comics took decades but it happened non the less. Not only did game replace comics they also bitch slapped movies and music. Yes, it became very successful, but it's not exactly a zero sum game. Comics have been dead since the '90s, and vidya is beating the hell out of every other medium, but I don't think vidya's rise is why the other media have fallen. The other media just fucked up all on their own. In fact, vidya fucked up in many of the same ways, but has also done other things that have helped it remain more successful. >>313771 Yeah, at best the interest sparked would only create a single sale, and not a return sale. Getting them to try it out is good, but not if what they find is fucked, like comics have been for decades. No point getting newbies if newbies can't understand it, or if they find it isn't worth the money, or if it's difficult for them to continue buying due to only being sold in weird stores, or if SJWs have made it so the comics deliberately shit all over the concepts that they liked in the movies and vidya and whatever else made them want to try the comics. >>313843 >At Dragon Ball Z, he is, but he's supposed to be a copy of Sun Wukong from Journey to the West went the first Dragon Ball was around. I don't know why Toriyama included space and alien shit in Dragon Ball Z, it just ruins the mysticism that the first series had. Because the previous arc had literally been about Goku becoming stronger than God so that he could beat the Devil. Where do you go after being stronger than God? Aliens. Because apparently aliens are stronger than God. Even when he invented new gods stronger than the earlier God. Fuck it. Then once he became stronger than the strongest alien, Frieza, Toriyama had a guy make new robots that were somehow even stronger than that. And when that was done, he just went back to making new levels of Gods. So basically the answer is he was just making it up as he went along and doing whatever felt cool at the time.
>>313843 >I don't understand why Marvel and DC Comics use this multiverse bullshit in the first place. Do they do this to milk their audiences to see their favorite superheroes for more action or something? Almost all the multiverse bullshit is only DC. Marvel does multiverse stuff but not in a very autistic way, just in the way of being like "what if there was a universe where Spider-Man was a ninja?" Or sometimes they'll do crossovers with tv shows and movies and stuff, and obviously those would be different universes since they don't share the same continuity. But these are rare, and not the type of multiverse stuff people talk about. They're easy to understand. The exception is the Ultimate Universe, which was intended to be basically a rebooted universe, but without the old universe being erased. Ultimate started from scratch, so it would be easy for newbies to understand, and also so they could update concepts for modern times (the spider that bit Peter is now a genetic experiment instead of a spider that wandered in front of a radioactive beam), and so they could try tweaking some things just for the sake of it (sometimes those tweaks worked, sometimes they didn't). They also promised the two universes would never cross over, and they didn't, though they did both cross over with other universes. For example, Marvel Zombies was a spinoff of Ultimate Fantastic Four, where they went to a universe where everyone was a zombie. Not exactly "multiverse autism," just an excuse to see a zombie world. They later did series all about the zombie universe, and occasionally the main universe would also cross over with it. Eventually, the Ultimate Universe became just as inaccessible to newbies as the main universe was, and they changed major aspects in ways people didn't like, and then eventually they just killed the entire universe, and now the only thing left of it is the black Spider-Man that replaced Ultimate Peter Parker when he died. People were okay with that because it's not like it was regular Peter Parker. Now it's just a mess because the entire point of Miles is that he was trying to live up to Peter, but now he is in the main universe where Peter is still alive, so it's just stupid. But that's really the worst Marvel's ever gotten with the multiverse autism. The real multiverse autism is at DC. Almost all superhero comics were cancelled in the '40s and '50s, with only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Arrow not being cancelled. Then in 1956 DC rebooted The Flash. The original Flash was cancelled like a decade earlier, and they figured comics were for kids, so kids wouldn't even remember the original Flash, but they could probably try again with the concept of a guy who runs fast. (Actually there were more guys who ran fast, like Johnny Quick and Max Mercury, but they were also cancelled long before The Flash.) In the new Flash's (Barry Allen's) origin story, he reads old comics of the original Flash series (about Jay Garrick) and when he gets speed powers, he names himself after his favorite comic character who happened to have the same powers. However, DC didn't count on neckbeards existing in the 1950s, and immediately got letters from adults complaining that Barry Allen isn't The Flash, Jay Garrick is. So a few years later, they did a story where Barry accidentally warps to another universe and meets Jay. It was very successful and popular, and it was still relatively easy to understand. Jay was also on an old team called the Justice Society, with all those other characters who got cancelled (and the ones who didn't) so they just said all the old guys were in Jay's universe, now called Earth-Two, and sometimes they would do a story where they teamed up with those old guys. Other characters were also rebooted after the success of The Flash, like Green Lantern, Hawkman, and The Atom, so they could also go and meet the old versions of those characters sometimes. Still not that complicated. There were also characters that only existed on Earth-Two, because they were never rebooted, like Doctor Fate, for example. Now, that would be less complicated, right? Well they figured they'd just give Doctor Fate his own series again, but it wasn't a reboot, it was a continuation, because the original was popular from his crossovers with other modern characters, which meant now some comics that they were publishing were in a different universe than most of the rest. Another thing that shouldn't be complicated but some people think it is, is that they started doing more stories about different universes that they were just making up. Like after "Crisis on Earth-Two," where they met the old guys who got cancelled, they did "Crisis on Earth-Three," and Earth-Three was the backwards universe where all the good guys were evil. So there were evil versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Flash. Now, for some reason they didn't have the same names, so Superman was Ultraman, Batman was Owlman, Wonder Woman was Superwoman (which was already a name used by Lois Lane when she would occasionally get superpowers), The Flash was Johnny Quick (which was already the name of a good guy on Earth-Two who hadn't made an appearance since the '40s), and Green Lantern was Power Ring. Maybe they gave them different names to try to make them less confusing, but the story already involved two other Flashes and two other Green Lanterns, the ones from Earth-One and Earth-Two, so giving the Earth-Three equivalents different names just sorta made it more confusing. There would also be occasional other new universes, but they were usually less important, and again more just for the case of going to "what if?" worlds. DC also has a history of buying other comics companies. The most notable is when they bought Fawcett Comics after driving them out of business with a lawsuit that ruled that Captain Marvel was a ripoff of Superman. By the '70s, DC decided to bring back Captain Marvel (the series had to be called Shazam now because the trademark on Captain Marvel had lapsed and Marvel had grabbed it and was now publishing their own new character called Captain Marvel). They just continued the stories from where they left off, which meant it was its own universe. So now DC had series happening in three universes, Earth-One (the main one), Earth-Two (the original one), and Earth-S (Shazam). Other companies DC bought include Quality Comics, who owned Plastic Man and others. DC actually forgot they bought Quality, and created Elastic Man as a deliberate ripoff, only to later remember they owned Plastic Man anyway. Eventually they just had Plastic Man stories on Earth-One like he was always there. They also did stories with other characters from his universe, like Uncle Sam, The Human Bomb, and Phantom Lady, and acted like they were from a universe where World War II never ended, called Earth-X (and also they say Plastic Man died fighting the Nazis, so there are two Plastic Mans now). Now, the implication would be that this was their original Quality Comics universe, and this is what happened after their comics were cancelled. But autists pointed out that their comics actually did continue after WWII ended, so technically their original universe must be a different universe, not Earth-X. But don't worry about it, that original universe is never important. Also later they'd say the characters from Earth-X were actually originally from Earth-Two and moved to Earth-X, but don't worry about that either.
Eventually people started pointing out a problem, though. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Arrow were on both the Justice Society (on Earth-Two) and the Justice League (on Earth-One). Those characters were never cancelled, and the point of both teams was to show all the most popular characters. But how could they be on both Earth-One and Earth-Two, and how come they weren't older, like the rest of the Justice Society characters were? So the logical solution was to say there were two copies of each of these characters. Technically, the originals were on Earth-Two, and technically, the "main" versions in the then-current comics were not the originals. The points at which the comics switched from the originals to the new ones was at some unspecified point in the past. They used this, though, to explain away any inconsistencies that had cropped up since their first appearances. For example, originally Superman worked at The Daily Star, and fought a red haired Luthor. At random points, they just started calling The Daily Star The Daily Planet, and Luthor was just suddenly bald (and Luthor's later origin story would show him going bald as a child). Now they said The Daily Star and ginger Luthor were on Earth-Two, and The Daily Planet and bald Luthor were on Earth-One. However, people also pointed out that this didn't make total sense, because these changes were gradual, and there were still stories with The Daily Star but bald Luthor. Therefore, DC was forced to explain that the real stories that were actually published mostly took place on Earth-Two-A, and technically, Earth-Two isn't the universe from most original comics, but a new universe that was technically only created that first time The Flash crossed over with Jay Garrick. However, this is not actually important, and there are no actual stories where Earth-Two-A is important. Earth-Two is just treated as the original universe. DC also bought Charlton Comics, who owned characters like Captain Atom, The Question, and Blue Beetle. However, this happened shortly before DC was about to do a story called The Crisis on Infinite Earths, where they were gonna try to merge all the universes into one, because they thought having some comics on Earth-One and some on Earth-Two and one on Earth-S was just confusing. And while at it, they'd get rid of all the other universes that were just occasional locations to visit (like Earth-Three and Earth-X), even though they weren't that confusing. The Charlton Comics universe appeared in The Crisis on Infinite Earths, called Earth-Four., but in that same story, it was merged into the main universe, along with all the others. Now, this would mean it should be relatively simple, but at the same time, writer Alan Moore had an alternate idea for the Charlton characters, an edgy deconstruction of them that would result in them all being killed or ruined. DC told him he wasn't allowed to ruin all these characters they just bought, so he changed them to OC stand-ins and made Watchmen. Watchmen was not part of the DC multiverse at all, so this shouldn't be confusing. But Watchmen was uber successful, so 30 years later they would finally just give up and have it cross over with the main universe in major ways, which again made it more confusing. Now, merging the universes (which happened in 1986, btw) necessarily resulted in history changing, because, for example, they were now saying The Justice Society and Justice League were always the same universe. So sometimes people treat this "New Earth" (what the merged universe) as a completely different universe, but technically it isn't, it's just Earth-One with the other universes pasted on top of it, which results in history being changed. History would also change several more times, like in Zero Hour (1994), Infinite Crisis (2005), and Flashpoint (2011). Technically, these are all the same universe, though. However, with Infinite Crisis, they created a new multiverse, because they started realizing that deleting the multiverse but keeping characters originally from multiple universes actually made things more complicated, not less. But the new multiverse was technically not the same as the old universe. There were some universes based on old universes, but they were very clear to note that they were technically not the same universes. So there was a new Earth-2 (not Earth-Two), and it had guys like the Justice Society, but the actual original Justice Society from Earth-Two still lived on New Earth (originally Earth-One, now called Earth-0). There was also a new Earth-3 with a new evil version of the Justice League, a new Earth-4 based on Earth-Four, etc. After Flashpoint, when Flash broke the timeline, history was changed in all universes, some more than others. The post-Flashpoint worlds are named without hyphens, so Earth-2 and Earth 2 are actually the same universe, but they're very different, though they both have characters based on the Justice Society, though the original Justice Society from Earth-Two still lives in the main merged universe (currently called Prime-Earth, not to be confused with Earth-Prime, which is the "real world" where the writers and artists of the comics live). On the topic of Earth-Prime, it was originally presented as the real world, and there would be stories where Superman or whoever would sometimes go to the real world and meet the people making his comics. However, during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Earth-Prime was destroyed (or rather, merged) with all the rest. But right before it was destroyed, Superman visited one last time and met a kid named Clark Kent, named after the comic book character, who found out that he actually was from real world krypton, and gained superpowers, but right before his world was destroyed, so nobody knew about it. As Superboy (or Superboy-Prime, to denote which universe he was from), he helped save the day, but his universe was still gone, and he had no place in the history of the merged universe. So he, the original Superman and Lois Lane from Earth-Two, and the son of the good Lex Luthor from the backwards universe where the good guys are evil, all went to a "Paradise Dimension" made by Luthor Jr.-Three's powers. Years later, Superboy-Prime and Luthor Jr-Three would become villains when they tried to recreate the multiverse to bring back their old worlds, even at the expense of the current universe and everyone living there. But they did end up doing it (but not to the extent they wanted, so there were only 52 universes instead of infinite universes like before, and also not everyone died). Earth-36 was now treated as the "Real World," and eventually Superboy-Prime got his powers taken away and he was sent there, even though technically it isn't really the universe he was from, but it had a history as if it was, and the people there were copies of people he knew, and were missing him (or apparently a version of him that never really existed but was exactly the same as the real him) so he fit in there. But of course he didn't like it because now he's a supervillain and knows comics are real but doesn't like how they changed and got all edgy since he was a kid. Anyway, this means that technically, our real world was only created in 2007, and all our memories of everything before that aren't really real, but just a fake history created when Captain Marvel villain Mr. Mind, a superintelligent Venusian caterpillar (originally from Earth-S, not that that's relevant) absorbed time travel energy by hiding inside timecop Booster Gold's robot-sidekick Skeets, and then used that energy to evolve into his moth form, which was bigger than the whole multiverse, and then he fed by biting off parts of universes, which changed their histories to not all be copies of the main DCU. So all of our memories and history from before that happened, in 2007, are fake.
>tl;dr: The multiverse exists because of autism causing DC Comics trying to have their cake and eat it to, be rebooting characters while keeping the old versions around.
This is all a very interesting discussion and I thank the anon for his walls of text, but where are the superpowered fat titties and asses?
>>314094 >>314095 I always knew i hate the flash family for a reason not really but flashpoint and the preceding retardation made me leave in disgust >>314103 Comics dont do that anymore. You'll have a ugly man and like it instead.
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>>314103 Good question.
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>>314103 >but where are the superpowered fat titties and asses? Here you go anon. >>314382 >10ton <Not the superior drawn version by Horikoshi's former assistant Shamefur dispray
>>314105 >not really but flashpoint and the preceding retardation made me leave in disgust New 52 really isn't as bad as people say. Most stuff was still canon, and there were some cool stories. Then with Rebirth a few years later they clarified that most of the stuff that people thought wasn't canon anymore actually still was. But this was also right around the time the SJW shit started really creeping in, so it gets rough. But there were still good stories. Marvel got infested much faster than DC. >>314103 Go read modern comics and you'll find plenty of fat asses. No titties though. Somehow the superpowers make it so all those fat women can not have titties.
>>314103 I wish i knew how to link to other boards. https://8chan.moe/co/res/2073.html
Damn, I've been thinking about fucking sexy superheroines for three days straight. Send help.
>>314744 Linking to other boards has been the same since 2003
>>314880 Most superheroines would be bad to fuck, though. At least the ones with super strength. Either they'd feel nothing due to either super tough skin or simply you not living up to literal god-like standards of stamina, or you would do a good job, and their spasms would clamp your dick off. There are reasons Supergirl and Power Girl never have long term love interests, and this is basically why Wonder Woman cucked Steve Trevor with Superman for a while. But thankfully that got erased from history by Superman's soul merging with the Superman off a splinter timeline who was older and married Lois Lane 11 years ago instead of staying single and fucking Wonder Woman later.
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>>314560 Going to have to disagree, I lasted a few more years before i left and the writing was on the wall i recognized a shit show when i saw it. the real irony? It wasn't the fact they turned Wally black that made me leave, its the fact that they wrote the original wally so bat shit fucking insane to prop up their diversity flash that made me leave. In modern comics its not enough to simply change a characters color, you have to basically destroy their legacy character to prop up the new token. It happens everytime from marvel to dc. If anons didn't recommend manga i'd have gone insane.
>>315272 >the real irony? It wasn't the fact they turned Wally black that made me leave, its the fact that they wrote the original wally so bat shit fucking insane to prop up their diversity flash that made me leave. Very true, but then they immediately had to do another series to explain away the previous series where they tried to make Wally a bad guy. Oh the writing was on the wall, but the back and forth there showed that there were still those trying to listen to reason and stop the SJWs. Also, the original Wally didn't come back until Rebirth. His coming back basically is what Rebirth is. New 52 would be the era after Flashpoint. I get if people call the era until Rebirth all New 52, even though technically they stopped calling it New 52 like a year before Rebirth, but Rebirth is a different thing, as much as you can say any of these eras are different things.
>>315350 >Also, the original Wally didn't come back until Rebirth. His coming back basically is what Rebirth is. New 52 would be the era after Flashpoint. I get if people call the era until Rebirth all New 52, even though technically they stopped calling it New 52 like a year before Rebirth, but Rebirth is a different thing, as much as you can say any of these eras are different things. The Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake holy shit.
>>315415 I'm curious if you've watched the CW crossover based on that? Because that was an abomination if not a mistake.
>>315264 I'm willing to risk it, for super tits.
>>315424 Every bone in your body will break and you will be ridden even after you lose consciousness because no mortal can have stamina equivalent to a superheroine. Are you sure about this?
>>315426 That's why you find one that doesn't have powers like Huntress. And I mean she already has a history in the DCAU of teaming up with conspiracy obsessed loners so Anon actually has a pretty good shot.
>>315435 Yeah but Huntress and I suppose the rest of the batman-esque superheroines/villanesses are also supposed to be the peak of physical fitness so I doubt the outcome will be different. I like huntress though, I fucking hate whatever the live action incarnation in the shitshow that is the DC movie universe was supposed to be. Speaking of which, what the actual fuck is the DC movie universe? How the hell did it even go past the first movie?
>>315426 No guts no glory, faggot.
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>>315426 >Every bone in your body will break and you will be ridden even after you lose consciousness
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>>315264 My girl Rogue would be fine as you are wearing a full body condom.
>>315426 Unless you fuck a hero who can't control their powers there's this thing called being able to control your muscles and strength.
>>315518 You must have the most boring orgasms
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>>315426 This is also the appeal of Klingon women.
>>315264 Do their vaginas need super strength?
>>315415 The worst part is that the names aren't even due to actual Crisis events, but just due to marketing. "The New 52" was just DC's marketing term for their series after Flashpoint, which happened to be a Crisis event, but it stopped 52 issues in, when they relaunched a bunch of their titles with new #1s, but there was no Crisis event, they were just continuing with no changes in history or anything. The 52nd issue of Justice League, right before the new #1, actually did culminate in a story involving The Anti-Monitor, the big motherfucker that caused the Crisis on Infinite Earths in the first place, but that story, Darkseid War was not itself a Crisis event, and despite all sorts of crazy shit happening that referenced previous Crisis events, it did not itself change history. This event, Darkseid War, happened immediately after Convergence, in which it was revealed that Brainiac (who himself was completely rebooted after the Crisis on Infinite Earths) happened to be visiting Vanishing Point (a place/time at the end of/outside of time) when the Flashpoint happened, and thus was not rebooted. (However, the new history still had a new Brainiac who is essentially now an alternate timeline version of him.) From Vanishing Point, Brainiac could see all of history, including all the different versions of history, including the real history of how the universe changed to have different histories. So he decided to go back to the dawn of time and try to become a Monitor (as in the original Monitor and Anti-Monitor from the Crisis on Infinite Earths, not the Post-Infinite Crisis type Monitors, which I think are technically different things, and the original two Monitors were just probes sent into the multiverse by the other type of Monitors). However, as Brainiac traveled back in time and passed 2005, he fell into a crack in reality caused by the time Superboy-Prime punched reality and changed history, shortly before Infinite Crisis. He then continued falling back through time and got all fucked up by all the shit that went down in Zero Hour and The Crisis on Infinite Earths, and absorbed all the "Crisis Energy" and became some sort of fucked up reality warping monstrosity. But he was still literally autistic, so now instead of grabbing cities from different cities and putting them in bottles, he decided to grab cities from different universes, timelines, and a few that were technically from a universe/timeline that he already collected but just thought were cool (like 31st Century Earth-One, where the original version of Legion of Superheroes live, even though it's technically the same universe as the 1985-era Earth-One, which he already had a city from), and of course he put them all in bottles. He also made sure to grab cities from points right before a universe or timeline was about to be changed, like he grabbed cities from every universe right before they all got destroyed/merged in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, and he also got a city from right before Zero Hour, right before Infinite Crisis, and right before Flashpoint, even though they were all the same universe. He specifically did not collect anything from the main universe (Prime-Earth) in "The Present" because it was not facing a Crisis event and that universe's history wasn't about to change. He did collect a city from Prime-Earth like 10 years in the future or something like that, when the world got taken over by OMACs. Anyway, we have Brainiac-0 (not that he's called that in-story, but the universe he's from was called Earth-0 at the point where he escaped history changing, so this serves to differentiate him from other Brainiacs who are technically the same guy but from different versions of history, such as the Brainiac from Earth-One and Brainiac from Prime-Earth (which are the same universe, but Earth-One is what it was called Pre-Crisis, before other universes merged into it, and then it was called New Earth, then after Infinite Crisis it was called Earth-0 because there were other Earths again and they were technically all copies of this Earth. After Flashpoint they started calling it Prime-Earth sometimes, but Earth-0 was still its technical designation as far as the Monitors were concerned, but it is useful to have a different name for the altered reality created by the Flashpoint. Our Brainiac is called Brainiac-0 because that's the point in history where he escaped from, but technically he's the same as New Earth [post-Crisis] Brainiac, Post-Zero Hour Brainiac. He rebooted after Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint but not after Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis). Brainiac-0 was content to sit with his collection and just bask in his autism forever, but then he saw the city he collected from the Injustice universe, and he thought it sucked, and it triggered his autism so bad that he decided to have all the cities he collected kill each other, and the last one standing had the promise of being restored to a full universe. But then a few heroes convinced him that being a a monster sucked and he would be more happy if he just went back to his timeline, so he used up all his energy to make all the cities into full universes again, in the present time and timeline (I guess he just didn't give enough of a fuck to bring them back to where they came from), and then he became a regular alien again. Then Pre-Zero Hour Parallax, Pre-Crisis Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El, and Pre-Flashpoint Superman (and Lois Lane, for some reason) went to make sure the Crisis on Infinite Earths never happened in the Pre-Crisis universes he was restoring, because otherwise there would be no point. Also Barry and Kara probably had a lot of motivation considering they died in the Crisis. It worked, and now all those universes and timelines and universes that were originally just future or past versions of other universes, all exist in the present, but outside the "Local Multiverse," which is the universes that are closest to Prime-Earth. You can think of it as a universal cluster. Note that this is still in the multiverse, though, whereas things like the Marvel Universe are a whole different multiverse (of course crossovers have still happened, so travel is still possible). However, while this could be considered a Crisis Event in a way, it didn't change the history of anything in the Local Multiverse. Also, Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois Lane got lost after saving the Pre-Crisis multiverse (technically a splinter timeline of the Pre-Crisis multiverse) and ended up stranded on Prime-Earth ten years in the past (and note that Superman only appeared about six years ago on Prime-Earth, so they just laid low under new identities, and also had a son).
So to be clear, The New 52 ended with Darkseid War. Nothing I say next is New 52. Immediately after Darkseid War (that story with the Anti-Monitor that wasn't a Crisis), Superman (Prime Earth, not the Pre-Flashpoint one) died due to getting like five kinds of poison at once in different stories (including one in Darkseid War). Pre-Flashpoint Superman then revealed that he was there the whole time and took over as the "New" Superman (as far as this version of history was concerned). Also Lois Lane (Prime Earth) died shortly after. But after like a year of that (in our time, not in-universe time) Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois Lane merged with the souls of the dead Prime Earth Superman and Lois Lane, and this drastically changed history, making it so Superman first appeared 15 years ago instead of like 6 years ago (Pre-Flashpoint Superman had probably been Superman for like 30 years by this point, as far as he was concerned, due to the ten years he spent in the Post-Flashpoint timeline). Also the son Pre-Flashpoint Superman had was now canon to the newly created timeline and not from an alt timeline or whatever. This story was called Superman: Reborn. That will be confusing, because immediately after this, they did a story called DC Universe: Rebirth, which they act like is a Crisis event, but isn't. Note that the above stuff with Superman (and a year worth of stories for everyone else) isn't considered New 52 OR Rebirth. It's just a time in between, but the history is exactly the same as New 52. There were no history changing events until Superman: Reborn, which is well after New 52 ended. So in Rebirth, Wally West reappears. Post-Flashpoint, they introduced a new character called Wally West who was a black kid, and he became Kid Flash, instead of a ginger adult who was originally Kid Flash for 25 years and then became The regular Flash for 25 years. This adult Wally reappeared and had been stuck in the speedforce since Flashpoint and everyone had forgotten him. But they hadn't forgotten him because of The Flashpoint, they forgot him because Abra Kadabra used magic to make everyone forget him and the rest of the original Teen Titans. But note that Wally's history, along with the rest of the Titans, was actually still changed by the Flashpoint, and while he remembered his original history at first, his memories were gradually replaced with his new Post-Flashpoint history, which is similar to what happened to many characters who survived the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now for some reason Rebirth is almost treated as a Crisis event, but technically it isn't, it's basically just Wally making people remember that he always existed. Superman: Reborn is much closer to being a crisis event. Meanwhile, events from a later series called Doomsday Clock were also happening and being foreshadowed years in advance, and that is also closer to being a Crisis event, but it is technically not the same thing as Rebirth, even though major things from both happened at the same time and seemed related, but they actually weren't. While I'm here being autistic, I also just feel like pointing out that The Crisis On Infinite Earths is a canon-event that happened in universe and everyone remembers it, but for a long time they only remembered that one positive matter universe ever existed, and it fought the Anti-Matter universe. They didn't remember the other positive matter universes merging into the main one. After Infinite Crisis, they remembered the old multiverse again (even tough it was technically different from the new multiverse). Either way, in-universe, the event is usually called The Red Skies Crisis, because the skies turned red when the universes started merging together, or when the Anti-Matter universe started invading (since the merge "never happened" post-Crisis). Flashpoint is actually called The Flashpoint in-universe, but almost nobody remembers it except The Flash, since it was basically a Flash solo story with some alt-timeline versions of characters. Booster Gold also remembers it, but specifically Pre-Flashpoint Booster Gold, because like Brainiac, he escaped the Flashpoint and continued to exist even though a new version of himself was created after the Flashpoint. Pre-Flashpoint Booster Gold became the new Waverider. I'm not sure what Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis are called in-universe though, even though everyone in the universe should remember those because they had massive effects, including billions of casualties.
>>315478 There is a version of Huntress in the live action DC movies? I thought the only live action Huntress was that terrible Birds of Prey tv show that seemed like a spinoff of Smallville but wasn't. Do you mean that tv universe? I can't be bothered to keep up with that shit anymore. I could believe that a version of Huntress has appeared in that Batwoman tv show, but I ain't watchin' that shit. Seasons 2 and 3 of Flash and seasons 1 and 2 of Legends of Tomorrow are really good, but everything drops off a cliff after that. Also everything before that sucks too. Also Arrow and Supergirl suck even at the same time that Flash and Legends were good. But still, those two seasons each of those two shows were good. >Speaking of which, what the actual fuck is the DC movie universe? How the hell did it even go past the first movie? The first movie was Man of Steel, and it had no signs of shared universe shit. Then it underperformed, so they immediately announced that the next movie wouldn't just be a Superman sequel, it would be Batman v. Superman, and would also feature Wonder Woman and the rest of the Justice League for some reason. So basically, it got past the first movie due to sheer greed and stupidity. And this continued, as when Batman v Superman got way worse reception than Man of Steel, instead of thinking this might be partially related to trying to cram 10 Marvel Movies worth of Avengers autism into a single movie, they attributed it wholly to having a "dark" tone, so they figured mashing Queen songs into Suicide Squad would magically make it a good movie, and getting Joss Whedon to butcher Justice League would somehow make it better, but actually, it turns out they only figured out a way to turn crap into shit. But we only found that out because AT&T forced WB to release the director's cut of the movie, which people were loudly demanding, and WB was literally refusing to take their money, because it would prove how truly incompetent the WB execs are. Because since they butchered Justice League, they released pieces of shit like Birds of Prey, which is universally hated and made no money. But they want to keep making things like that, and even though the release of the Snyder Cut has proven that people want that more than the SJW shit, they're determined to keep going with the SJW shit. So set aside your taste and the fact that the Snyder Cut is still bad, but WB execs are literally turning down money because they refuse to acknowledge the reality that people hate SJW shit. tl;dr: The DC Movie Universe started due to greed and incompetence, and now continues out of sheer SJW spite for normalfags.
>>315435 If she doesn't have powers she's just a regular fit woman. They exist in real life. They're just hard to get, and they'd be even harder to get if they fought crime in their spare time. >>315518 If you're any good, you're supposed to make it so a woman can't control certain muscles and strength, you limp-dicked faggot. >>315541 It's semi-canon (as in explicitly mentioned in some versions but not all) that Superman needed to train to be able to fuck Lois Lane without killing her with his cumshot. Equivalent problems would probably be faced by female Kryptonians and other super-strengthed individuals. Supergirl is also usually shown as having less control over her abilities than Superman, if for no other reason than getting her powers more recently. Wonder Woman is supposed to be super graceful, so maybe she could control it, but if she's that graceful, she probably just wouldn't fuck you in the first place. She'd be chaste. You could try to rape, but good luck getting through that super vagina. You could tie her up and remove her powers, but then what's the point?
Hey anon, want to play as teenage superheroines? Here you go. >>315824 The live action huntress is in Birds of Prey, the shitty movie.
>>315943 >super teen girls >not super milfs
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>>315943 Hey, didn't you want Super titties earlier? >>314103 Here you go >MFW the game will probably also have the Power Girl costume My dick is not ready. >>316143 Assuming they don't nigger it up, that's probably or next season.
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And something from the show for good measure.
>>316159 >that's probably or next season. CAN'T WAIT Is this show any ggod? it looks like it's shit for little girls.
>>316197 >it looks like it's shit for little girls Because is shit for little girls created just to sell toys.
>>315943 You know I didn't expect that show to get a video game adaptation. its looks ok but all I can think about is the one sfx in the menu sounding exactly the same as the one is breath of the wild. >>314889 That doesn't stop me from forgetting how to do it.
>>316197 It's fun. Thankfully it didn't have bronies attached to it, to my knowledge and its quite popular in nipland. Faust is out of the project. >>316212 Kinda. It's a continuation of some short clips Lauren Faust did years back fo CN, that were basically Supergirl + Batgirl + Wonder Girl as a Buttercup + Bubbles + Blossom type of thing but with DC characters. Then the toyline you mentioned kicked off by Shea Fontana, that thing ended and the network and DC gave Lauren Faut the reigns of the series to do with as she pleased. The results are what you have now. The toy sales aren't as good as the previous series but it has more fans buying other stuff. Faust's not attached to the project anymore so it could go either way but the ideas revolved around the girls growing until the last year of high school until they become proper superwomen / super milfs. So unless they pull it for 8+ seasons, you'd be seeing it next season. >>316223 It's even more unexpected that it's TOYBOX behind the game, a japanese company and they seem to do better with each trailer.


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