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MMO Thread Anonymous 05/16/2021 (Sun) 07:03:19 Id:b7f38c No. 310777
A general thread for discussion on MMOs. WoW: The Burning Crusade Classic releases in June and FFXIV: Endwalker releases in November. Currently FFXIV is crushing WoW in active subscriptions. This is actually a big deal as WoW has been chief MMO for over a decade, now it's been toppled. Truthfully FFXIV was even better than WoW years ago but WoW barely had the upper hand in subscriptions because of the old playerbase. Over time more of that older playerbase have realized the game is shit and not what it used to be and quit. The Burning Crusade Classic is really Blizzard's last chance at reeling back in that old playerbase, but I doubt it will contend with FFXIV. With all that being said, what MMOs are you currently playing or have recently played? I dabbled around with some private servers of old MMOs with you guys but I just got back on FFXIV to do some content I missed and to prepare for an upcoming patch.
>>310782 Last I remember an MMO general thread on here was a couple of months ago. Also I don't play WoW but maybe some anons do and I'm curious if they give enough shit to play TBC classic or perhaps stick to private servers. Was I supposed to make an MMO thread but not mention the two most popular MMOs right now? Fuck off nigger.
>>310784 I played WoW up until a few months ago where I got sick of it and just left and I have no intention of ever going back. Seems like I made the right call as now they are adding in tranny dragons to the game. I would give some other MMO's a go but they never have any servers for my country so fuck it.
>>310787 I live in burgerland and I've played in servers hosted in Japan and Russia before for some MMOs and I have decent internet at best. I don't know what country you're in but assuming your internet isn't shit you could probably play a few MMOs with a decent connection.
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Black desert has been my goto MMO ever since runescape became too dated for me to enjoy anymore. Only two MMOs I've been able to find so far where it feels like they put just as much effort into fleshing out non-combat skills as combat skills. Never been able to last long in a combat focused MMO, it just gets old so quick for me.
>The Burning Crusade Classic is really Blizzard's last chance at reeling back in that old playerbase i think they've already fucked it up. with the deluxe edition, jewing for copying characters (which theyve since lowered the price) and allowing level boosts i think itll still do well, but not as well as classic. >With all that being said, what MMOs are you currently playing or have recently played? i tried the pso2 ngs beta and its pretty fun. i never really cared for the original, but i really enjoyed ngs. i might get endwalker if im not doing anything when it releases, but i really dont like the gameplay of ffxviv unfortunately. aside from those i will most likely get into elyon as a lot of my guild members are and i think it would be fun to play with again like we did in BDO.
>>310791 have they added the ability to play music in bdo now?
>>310789 >I don't know what country you're in Aus and playing with over 200 ping is not fun for me. If developers expect me to pay a monthly sub on top of expansions, I expect at the very least an Australian server and since WoW is the only MMO bar I think Runescape that has servers for us, it was the only one I played.
>>310793 Yeah and only lolis can do it, the way it works is that you can either compose a song or use the music album to browse songs others have composed. Theres even a composing skill that you level by playing music to various NPCs around the world. I was kind of hoping it would be as easy as uploading an abc or midi file like a lot of other games that do this. At least they didn't pull a warframe and make you play your keyboard like a guitar and if you wanted to save any songs you had to play them perfectly all the way through.
>>310795 yeah i just looked it up. it looks pretty awesome. i wish other mmos that ive played like mabinogi, archeage and ffxiv had a composing like this. i already leveled a shai to 50 when she released because loli, but maybe ill try to 56 and give this a whirl.
>>310794 Ah yes, it sucks being an Australian if you like MMOs. If you ever want to try FFXIV you'd have to play on the Japan data center but there happens to be a Japanese server with a lot of English speakers, the Tonberry server. You'd probably get around 120-150 ping playing there.
>>310801 >>310794 ffxiv is actually releasing an aus server soon
>>310803 Is it? usually companies don't give a toss about us because apparently we don't have a big enough player base to warrant servers apparently even though WoW basically disproves this as our servers are damn near always filled.
>>310804 This one new MMO that's still in alpha is supposedly getting an Australian server. It's called Ashes of Creation and it's a western MMO so don't have high hopes for it, even though a Korean MMO would be worse.
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Anons are playing Phantasy Star Universe right now in mmo round table. Get in here >>307264. We are grindan and levelan and gamblan and chillan. Come level up and stare at empty sceneries with us, no invites or gay shit needed, just hop in >Downloading is easy and you don't even need to register on the site, you can just create an account in the game. https://psu-clementine.net/community/index.php?/client_download/ >There's also a wiki with good info on the game, though I don't mind helping in the game https://psu-clementine.net/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started_with_Clementine#Creating_an_account >Me and some other anons who have already played the game have enough experience to help out anyone new and can guide you through the game. The server's also been going through some updates since we last played and they've made it better for early level players, like giving exp bonuses once you've completed daily missions and such. There's also supposed to be a big update coming in May so it's the perfect time to try the game out again.
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>>310807 After a few runs last we grouped up I managed to get a rather nice set of parts, behold the new Captain Zeon.
>>310804 yeah they announced it yesterday at their fanfest. dunno when theyre coming though.
>>310812 Might give it a go if they actually go through with it then.
So Blizzard really is just going to re-release every expansion aren't they? I've never seen a bigger admission of "were incompetent and can't make anything new that's good so here's the same thing as before." >>310798 Until the hosts get greedy or lazy and let the server fill up with ///gold sellers.\\\
>>310861 How popular is wow in chink market? I know they are Tencent but it was mostly mobile shit that was famous
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>>310807 >>310811 >captain zeon Looks better then the real captain zeon they created
>>310861 >let the server fill up with ///gold sellers.\\\ Considering the official servers have official gold selling, it's still better on private servers for the most part.
>>310861 >So Blizzard really is just going to re-release every expansion aren't they? Classic was basically the only thing that saved them after BFA was a complete disaster and now that Shadowlands is another colossal fuckup BC is coming back and then Wrath will when the next expansion for retail is another train wreck and so on and so on.
>>310899 Surely, Boogaloo2 For Azeroth™ will save Blizzard :^)
The one and only thing I care about at this point is server integrity. There's plenty of discussion to be had about combat and progression mechanics, but none of that matters if they can't even this right. No megaservers. You need to physically force a population of people to live in the same world and allow those players to meaningfully interact with each other. YES EVEN FOR THE WORSE YOU FAGGOTS! Economy. All the tools have existed this whole time and yet devs just don't seem to want a decent economy. At the end of the day the only things that will retain value are evergreen consumables. Either consumable in the sense of pots and shit or in the sense of crafting materials. They must also be EVERGREEN! Not useful for 2 hours of game time then never relevant again. Yes that makes your job harder as design space is no longer infinite BUT THATS YOUR FUCKING JOB TO DEAL WITH YOU LAZY FUCKS!
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>>310777 I have been playing Turtle WoW's custom expansion. Its pretty great to have the option to play as a alliance high elf in a vanilla setting. They also re-integrated a lot of cut features and eve made their own quests. Its almost like playing the for the first time again. They even have support for certain challenges like hardcore(where you cannot die) or turtle mode(where you lose exp after death and get 0.5 exp from kills but rewards every 10 levels). Its dare I say...fun.
>>310976 I've thought about trying out Turtle WoW ever since first trying private servers some years back. Call me a faggot but the PvE stuff and atmosphere is what I like about playing MMOs - the competitive aspect never appealed to me much since there'll always be someone more autistic, min-maxed or Asian than you. Honestly, helping out newbies and giving directions was the best part of my time playing on a private server two (?) years ago.
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>>311203 >Honestly, helping out newbies and giving directions was the best part of my time playing on a private server two (?) years ago. >The best part of playing an MMO was actually meeting people all along The moment MMOs were more about Raids rather than meeting and interacting with people in meaningful ways is the moment MMOs died. Why even bother getting introduced to a guild when you can just roll a search que? Why bother building relationships and familiarity when a search que and inflexible meta makes them completely replacable? Why bother introducing people and coaching them when there are six quintillion guides on ideal builds and you can just link that?
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>>310777 >With all that being said, what MMOs are you currently playing or have recently played? I'm still enjoying the SMT Imagine private server, ReImagine to be specific. Each day of the week has a specific dungeon bonus, giving you more currency than usual. Today's reward bonus is for Shibuya Quartz, making it the easiest profit of the week. I'll be grinding plenty.
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>>311367 I logged in today just out of curiosity. I do miss doing the dungeon runs and we never did all of them, at least not all the Gold ones. I'll come back to it after I get my fill of PSU again and maybe we can revive SMT.
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>>311525 I've been taking a break from SMT myself to work on PSU stuff, thankfully I have another week COMP expansion card in my mail for such a time that I go back on.
>>310777 >The Burning Crusade Classic is really Blizzard's last chance at reeling back in that old playerbase Blizzard has already poisoned the well by introducing a paid level boost to 58 and a digital "deluxe" edition (for SEVENTY FUCKING DOLLARS) that gives you some cosmetics and a unique retail-style mount. I was strongly considering resubbing for TBC Classic, at least to experience the first couple phases like I did for vanilla, but this shit is beyond the pale. Porting retail's pay2win cash shop into TBC shows that Blizzard has completely abandoned even the pretense of keeping Classic pure and will continue to introduce more crap like race changes and WoW tokens within the next year.
>>311756 It took blizzard till now to remove the retardedly huge spell batching window from classic. That's something people have been asking since before it launched Meanwhile we get p2w shit in tbc from day one. It's unbelievable how much of a faggot company blizzard is
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Imagine paying for a fucking MMO subscription
>>311796 subscription is the lesser of evils. which does not mean that subscription based games are automatically good, but subscription fees guarantee your game wont have brazilians or children in it while simultaneously allowing the game to fund itself without a cash shop. the worst kind of MMO is the f2p p2w, they're always bad, and the only people playing them are sunk-cost fallacy people who just can't let go.
>>311882 >but subscription fees guarantee your game wont have brazilians or children in it while simultaneously allowing the game to fund itself without a cash shop. If the way you assess the efficacy of a payment model is in how well it gatekeeps people you don't like from using the software then you're a complete fucking retard. Software as a service is never permissible. There is fundamentally no difference between a F2P and a subscription based MMO. They're both software as a service and not even remotely necessary to have your software remain profitable.
>>311885 whats your alternative then? you have this giant world that you invested millions to develop, you release it to the public, and you have to pay people to maintain the servers, people to moderate the users (for cheating etc.) and you have to develop some content updates once in a while to keep users engaged. if subscriptions are unacceptable, whats your solution? people are not gonna moderate/develop for free like they do on imageboards. >>311893 you're making the TORfag look reasonable by comparison.
>>311896 >you have this giant world that you invested millions to develop Nothing about game development necessitates that you invest a lot of money. Good games have been made in less than 2 years with minimal resources and bad games have been made in a decade with hundreds of millions in resources. >you have to pay people to maintain the servers, people to moderate the users (for cheating etc.) Let people run their own dedicated servers and lease out your own servers to people too retarded to spin up their own VPS, like multiplayer games have done for decades. >and you have to develop some content updates once in a while to keep users engaged. Sell the content updates. >if subscriptions are unacceptable, whats your solution? people are not gonna moderate/develop for free like they do on imageboards. People have ran their own servers however they felt appropriate for decades. There is no reason an MMO style game can't let users run their own dedicated servers in the exact same way, in fact that is the only ethically permissible way to let people interface with your software. This is not some outlandish concept. I buy software, then I get to use that software indefinitely regardless of whether or not you want me to. The fact that we've normalized software as a service is ridiculous.
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>>311896 personally i think runescape has the best subscription model out of them all, but i would upgrade it by making bonds be purchaseable from NPCs instead of allowing other players to basically do RMT by selling bonds. have a free section of the game, say about 5-10%, where players can do a limited amount of activity to gather money, then they can go to an NPC in the game and purchase membership time with in game currency or jump straight into membership with cash. that way the game gets monetary support and you cannot purchase an unfair advantage into the game. >>311903 >Nothing about game development necessitates that you invest a lot of money you need to invest a lot of time, and time is money. also, the good games that were made in 2 years (which is a lot of time by the way) aren't MMOs, at least not good ones. >let people run their own servs okay so everyone plays in their little box, thats not an MMO. or at least not a populated MMO >sell the content updates good god m8, i know im replying to a tornigger but you wrote an entire bible just to say "LMAO BRO b2p IS THE SOLUTION". its not. name me 1 successful b2p game that has managed to keep tens of thousands continuously coming back to buy new expansions. people eventually move on/get bored and then no one buys your expansions and you have to shut down. >people have ran their own servers yes, they run servers of games that have already been developed by multi-million dollar companies. they didn't make the game, they didnt invest millions of dollars worth of time and manpower to get there, they took a finished product and emulated the server code. >i buy software
>>311909 >you need to invest a lot of time, and time is money. also, the good games that were made in 2 years (which is a lot of time by the way) aren't MMOs, at least not good ones. There is nothing about an MMO that necessitates a massive resource investment. Especially not with knowledge and tools we have in current yet. There are also different kinds of MMO's and the resource demand for one could be radically different than another. >okay so everyone plays in their little box, thats not an MMO. or at least not a populated MMO This just goes to show you have no idea what you're talking about. The WoW private server scene operates entirely around people self-hosting their own various versions of CMaNGOS and a lot of those servers see active user bases in the hundreds of thousands each month, more in the WoW private server prime days years back. This is a system that has proven to work fine for all games including MMORPG's. >name me 1 successful b2p game that has managed to keep tens of thousands continuously coming back to buy new expansions. people eventually move on/get bored and then no one buys your expansions and you have to shut down. Most buy to play MMO's don't stick with a single game and single engine indefinitely. This approach to game design is unique to developers who have locked themselves into the subscription based revenue model so it's basically impossible to make comparisons. Guild Wars has servers running to this day and it's a buy to play MMO that is still actively played, no sub required. Because believe it or not, running game servers doesn't actually cost that much money. Competent game development doesn't result in a game that has been worked on continuously for 20 fucking years straight. Games should be started and finished, not an eternal drip feed of shittier and shittier skinner box content to keep you entertained just long enough to tick over to the next months subscription. >yes, they run servers of games that have already been developed by multi-million dollar companies. they didn't make the game, they didnt invest millions of dollars worth of time and manpower to get there, they took a finished product and emulated the server code. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an argument. Do you think 99% of source games are commercial failures because they let people host their own servers and respect the agency of their players to host and create custom content for a game they don't own the copyright for?
>>311818 (You) >>311882 Why do I have to keep paying if I already paid 60 dollars for the game?
>>311997 nah charging for the sub AND the game is gay. it should just be the sub. unless you're buying some collector edition crap i suppose but at that point you're just paying for plastic collectibles. again i think runescape has the closest to a perfect monetization model there is, save for the detail of letting players profit off of bonds. >>311937 >making MMOs is easy its not, out of all the game genres its the most resource intensive type of game. you're retarded >private servers they didnt invent the games they run servers of, null point in terms of this argument. >guild wars nobody plays guild wars in 2021, and if they do, they do it in private servers, which doesnt really motivate the devs to make more content. see point 2. also guild wars 2 was a failure. >games should be started and finished not MMOs. you need a lot of people, and to get a lot of people connected at the same time you need the game to be extremely lengthy so that theres a constant large pool of people for other people to team up with. >source games i dont even know what you meant by this line. dont really care. the overall point here is that when you spend years working on an MMO to be good (because an MMO developed in 6 months with unity will inevitably be shit and a kickstarter scam) you need to feed the people working on the story, the music, the graphics, the systems, the netcode, and everything else for however long development lasts, and that'll run you several million dollars, which your game has to make back during its early life. and to do that you need to monetize the finished product. the 3 ways to do that are sub2play, buy2play, and pay2win. there are no other ways of making the money back with an MMO. buy2play works short-to-mid term, game dies after interest stops new buyers from funding further updates. sub2play works the best long term and keeps most retards, beaners, pinoys, and poor people (AKA children) away. pay2win takes a big shit over the game but makes the most profit for the company that put forward the initial investment, it is also a short term strategy.
>>312048 >its not, out of all the game genres its the most resource intensive type of game. you're retarded Depends entirely on the kind of MMO. Slapping the label "MMO" onto something does not suddenly make it inherently more resource intensive. The scope of some MMO's can be resource intensive compared to the scope of other games, but that does not mean every MMO in existence could not survive without a subscription payment model. We already know this to be true. >they didnt invent the games they run servers of, null point in terms of this argument. Whether or not they invented the game or not had nothing to do with your argument. Your argument wasn't that holding copyright over the game dictates how active decentralyzed servers are. Your argument was that server decentralization itself would result in low population servers defeating the point of a massively multiplayer game. I disputed this by pointing out that there have been widely successful private servers running off of FOSS implementations of the back end to older WoW expansions. Try to keep up, anon. >nobody plays guild wars in 2021, and if they do, they do it in private servers Plenty of people still do. To the point where the game is still constantly full price. I don't even think there are GW private servers. >not MMOs If your qualification for what makes a good MMO is that it's an unfinishable skinner box drip feed then I guess we just fundamentally disagree. It sounds like what you're after is something highly specific and are willing to sacrifice your autonomy as a consumer of software in order to achieve it. >i dont even know what you meant by this line. dont really care. You responded to the fact I pointed out self-hosting servers for multiplayer games is common by saying they don't hold the copyright to these games. I responded to that with utter confusion because it was wholly irrelevant, and it seems you've become lost in the absurdity of your own argument as well in the process. Quite entertaining. >the overall point here is that when you spend years working on an MMO to be good Wrongly assuming MMO's necessarily require bloated resources. You're basically just conceding that the only developers that make MMO's are incompetent so they need to deploy exploitative revenue schemes to makeup for their bloated and incompetent development cycles. When you're confronted with MMO's that don't or didn't have bloated incompetent development your only response is that because it could be infinitely maintained and developed for it must be a bad MMO. For you to consider an MMO good you mandate that it does things no other game is expected to do. You've built a narrative where the only good MMO is one that can only be sustained by an inherently unethical revenue model. >Guild Wars, dude only a few hundred monthly users play that game after 16 years and it was only actively developed for 5 years that's a shit game Your standards for what makes a successful MMO are so absurd they border on hilarity. It's like you think MMO's are Linux distributions or something rather than fucking video games. And the fact you can't conceive of an MMO with a good enough gameplay loop that it doesn't need content updates for the next 600 years straight every 6 month just goes to show how addicted you've become to terrible skinner boxes. Go touch some grass retard.
Is Guild Wars worth playing? I've never played it. It's a one time buy and no subscription right? I heard the Steam refund shit doesn't work on it anymore.
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Since you two anons are arguing, what the hell even makes an MMO an MMO? If we need lots of people, what is the bare minimum? Sure, Guild Wars 1 was an MMO, but you still had 4-6 people generally out on the plains that you grabbed from town. Toon Town was a similar sort of deal. I know it's retarded to call other games MMOs (looking at you, Tarkov) when their gameplay is more akin to something like a lobby shooter, or a co-op game, but where do we draw the line there? >>311213 I'll always say raid finder and dungeon finder were nails in the coffin for MMOs. Why bother interacting with people when you can just press a few buttons and someone will pop in, usually geared to the role you were searching for? WoW and Everquest's design choices are still killing the genre as we know it. It doesn't help publishers are still in the train of thought if they just release a similar product that people will flock to their shiny new game instead. They don't realize that vidya in general require something new to entice people. Most people are not going to drop their time investment and the friends they made along the way >implying MMOs are like this, I know but work with me here to play the exact same game but have to work their way back up. Couple this with the delusion of getting WoW numbers at it's peak and the pressure that devs feels and you end up with low quality games. It doesn't help MMOs that are in development right now are facing all sorts of internal and external issues. Chronicles of Elyria turned out to be vaporware, Camelot Unchained (one I'm looking forward to) got a publisher and is working on two games at once? They did claim to stop doing this, but who knows with the way devs treat their would be players. Someone really does have to release one decent sandbox MMO, literally anything with a neat gimmick or two and I'd be happy.
>>312070 MMO's that lean towards sandbox elements are more true to the original concept. A "true" MMO has a world that is somewhat open, perhaps with resources that need to be contended over. A modern "true" MMO might be something like Albion Online. Then there's instance/lobby based "MMO's", which have "open" lobbies where people can hang out to queue up for instances. These are mostly just MMO in name only, or put such little focus on the MMO elements of the game that they might as well be dismissing themselves from the genre. Most MMO's could probably just be classified as online RPG's.
>>312057 too long didn't read
>>312070 an MMO is a Massive Multiplayer Online. the O isn't really important because being online is inherent to being massive multiplayer. if a game is Massive Multiplayer that means that hundreds of players should be able to coexist within the same instance of the world simultaneously, thats essentially what MMO means.
>>312076 Not saying you're wrong, but just going by that logic shouldn't WoW be an example of what an MMO should look like? I'm not even a fan of WoW but I know you can see hundreds of players out in the open world and there's raids with as much as 25 players, and there is one with 40 players right? Honestly as someone who's played a lot of MMOs, raiding is the most fun aspect especially when a large group of players is involved. WoW also has world PvP where you can see hundreds of players in a literal war fighting in a zone.
>>312094 Early WoW is basically the quintessential MMO regardless of how many people don't like it.
Is there an archive of all the old Runescape music? I want to remember, and I know it will hurt
>>312094 thats because it is. WoW is a bonafide MMORPG. you might not like it, i don't like it honestly, but it is. >>312104 Everquest and FFXI are both MMORPGs too.
>>312104 Not sure how that's relevant.
>>312104 WOW features many innovations over EverShit, and FFXI is a carbon copy of that game (or was before all the expacs).
>>310791 Wow, cute. Are there SFMs?
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>When everyone hated something in an MMO but you liked it Do you guys have any examples?
>>312113 the grand exchange for me
>>312113 Advanced classes in Phantasy Star Online 2. Everyone says the hero class destroyed the game by being so retardedly overpowered, and to be honest, they're half right. However, I also feel like hero broke PSO2 out of a rut it had been stuck in for a very long time by adding animation canceling to photon arts. Put simply, hero took PSO2's combat from "good for online game standards" to good compared to anything short of Devil May Cry or Platinum games. Unfortunately, Sega fucked up a ton of other things at the same time they added hero, so hero ended up becoming the symbol of the beginning of the decline of PSO2. Fit girl semi related. Sega upgraded PSO2's graphics engine a month or so ago and added the same kind of skin shaders that porn games use, so now, characters can have a wet/sweaty look to them. Hopefully, summer will convince other players to set their girls to summer fun mode when the inevitable beach emergency quest comes around.
>>312136 dunno, game feels kinda stale now that the whole focus is on New Genesis, all scratches are now retool of old clothes and hair for the NGS body-models
>>312138 I think just about any veteran of the game will agree with that. PSO2 is definitely on its death bed. I'll be shocked if it ever gets any new content outside of scratches it shares with New Genesis, to be honest. I knew it was going to be dying soon, but it's sad to see it die for such a blatant attempt to pander to the west.
>>312113 It's reading quests and lore. Half of my friends are fags who will skip over an entire storyline because, "We gotta hit the end game content!" and don't realize that MMO's shouldn't be about hitting the level cap and then looking for things to do. An example of this was in Black Desert when we were playing that for a bit much to my disgust later when I realized all of the glaring issues. Someone had asked out of the blue if I knew which faction was fighting the one we were doing quests for and after I laid out a summary of what and why, I hear, "See man, I told you he'd know." Well shit man, God forbid I find a reason to become invested into the thing we're playing. Just a shame that it was 90% afk grinding and 10% actual pressing keys that aren't alt and tab to switch back to anime I'm binge watching
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>>310877 You shut your whore mouth. >>311213 >The moment MMOs were more about Raids rather than meeting and interacting with people in meaningful ways is the moment MMOs died. <2007 was 14 years ago It's been that long?
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So I just found out there's a Saint Seiya MMO that came out all the way back in 2012 and I never knew. Are there any other licensed anime MMOs out there? I know there's Dragon Ball Online. You would think weebniggers would be all over these games but they're rather obscure.
>>312215 Anon, stop it. Those things hurt more than you think they do. Besides, it was a long time ago.
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>>312216 I don't know what you're trying to say
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>>312217 It has more to do with the production of those games and the promises that were made along with the official authors getting involved in them. Long story short, both projects fell, only a beta was released in South Korea / Taiwan and nowadays both games are run by trannies that own private servers. Among the promised things were definitive endings of both series penned by the authors and to their credit, at least Toriyama did pen a great amount of shit and people were quite happy about it for a time. In fact, a lot of it was repurposed for Xenoverse 1 and if Battle of the Gods hadn't happened, the Beerus subplot would have been taken out and you'd have something very close to the offline version of DBO, without the open world. Similarily for Saint Seiya since the status of Saint Seiya Next Dimension with the publisher so it was to have a storyline in the future with budding Saints ascending to Gold and putting an end to the whole shit going on. To my knowledge, unlike DBO, Saint Seiya is still fucking broken as a game and has zero redeeming qualities. Obviously none of that played out like that and a lot of weebs back in the day, that wanted an MMO to have a spergy old time, didn't get that and got hurt. Among them were some /a/nons from back in the day that refused to talk about these. DBO did have a great opening though and great support from BandaiNamco for a time if you can believe it. The opening was produced by them and they oversaw the development of the MMO for a time and even had programmers help the koreans that were making them by sculpting the models to be more Toriyama-accurate.
>>312223 Well their first mistake was trusting koreans to make an MMO. And also both of those anime don't really work in the form of an MMO. Like Saint Seiya really isn't that popular anymore and it wasn't in 2012. I mean The Lost Canvas was good but that ended right before the MMO came out. The only thing new out of the series is CGI netflix trash. As for Dragon Ball Online the combat is like tab targeting which doesn't fit for Dragon Ball at all. If it were dynamic action combat I could see that MMO being more popular. Come to think of it, I don't even know what licensed anime would work great as an MMO. Maybe one of those Isekai animes where the story is actually in an MMO. There actually is a .hack MMO called .hack//fragment. Not sure if it's playable and if it's good.
>>312238 I'd play a high fantasy MMO set in Record of Lodoss War tbh
>>311756 This is why I'm not planning on touching it. Classic had at least some degree of integrity, and a number of its issues were player created (The GOTTA GO FAST TO 60 mentality, metaslaving even in objectively piss-easy content, etc.). I'm not sure I'll ever get to experience anything quite like leveling on Classic when it was brand-new ever again. >All those people running around the starting area >Making it to Bloodhoof Village nearly empty, and seeing dozens of people running around it by the time I headed off to The Barrens, which was also near-empty >That one time in STV some jackass hunter tried to kill me but just got fucked in return, and on the next try, I took out his pet as well just to rub salt in the wound >That one time I ganked an Spriest who was killing an AFK player in Felwood, then spent the next 3 hours stalking me across multiple zones >All those dungeon runs with people who just wanted to enjoy the game instead of running Scarlet Monastery over and over and over to level Even if I basically knew the world in and out, it still managed to somehow feel fresh.
>>312238 >Well their first mistake was trusting koreans to make an MMO. Nobody knew any better back then, these things started back in 2009-2010. Koreans were the "masters" of MMOs back then, the only MMO more popular being WoW. And, Vindictus came out in 2009-2010 IIRC? How could not anyone not be excited upon seeing the "future" of MMOs back then? >And also both of those anime don't really work in the form of an MMO. Yeah but you could also make that arguement for a lot of games based on anime <Dragon Ball doesn't really work in the form of a Card-based RPG <Naruto doesn't really work in the form of a turn-based RPG <Saint Seiya doesn't really work in the form of a Musou <Hokuto no Ken doesn't really work in the form of a Musou / Yakuza game And so on. I get it, it's a valid concer and at times complaint, I won't pretend I haven't made that complaint either but back then people and /a/utists were really thirsty to have some MMO they could call their own and do shit they always wanted, it's why the authors got involved and made an actual effort to make new, future-based stories, so that the player could be in the place of Seiya / Goku etc. Go through their adventures in his way and have his friends help him. MMOs were mostly played for the Multiplayer and friends part at one point if you can remember that far back. >Like Saint Seiya really isn't that popular anymore and it wasn't in 2012. <HowIknowyourefromNorthAmerica101.txt Ribbing aside, Saint Seiya saw as small revival back in 2005 with some PS2 titles obviously released only in Japan, Mexico and non-english speaking Europe and then went on to get revived with mroe fervor due to Next Dimension, the OVAs, the announcement of the CG movie and new games on the PS3, like Saint Seiya Senki / Saint Seiya Sanctuary you know where it released by now and everyone went apeshit. Toei saw that the gravy train hadn't died and the movie was a success so they pumped more games that also came to america yeah, you received the repuporsed, recycled Musou game into a shitty Naruto Storm clone and you even got the Netflix deal much later which we all know how it turned out. >Maybe one of those Isekai animes where the story is actually in an MMO Fuck no, are you crazy? Those are the ones who are the worst for MMOs despite shouting that they are "totally an MMO dude". I'd be like trying to fight like Sagat in real life just because he says he practices "Muay Thai". They work far better as A-RPGs, closer to what .hack did so many years ago. Even SAO, the KING of those isekai MMOshits, can't work on anything other than multiplayer A-RPGs with a single player campaign and even then, the companies responsible for it fuck shit up very hard. >Not sure if it's playable and if it's good. Imagine .hack the first quadrilogy but as a multiplayer online mod, with limited character creation and only on the PS2. There you go. It was meh.
>>312285 >>312158 The issue here is that this is the logical endpoint of a loot-focused game. Remember WoW was modeled off of Diablo and that game went through this exact same process. Blizzard was just too stupid to realize that what might be fine for a single-player game with optional coop is suicidal for an MMO. Funnily enough, nobody else seems to have realized this either which is why every single WoW contender crashed and burned because they tried to compete with a formula that was doomed to go to shit from the very start. WoW was only able to work with it for so long because of the community its first two expansions managed to foster but everything after that was just them chipping away at their own game. Simply put if the only incentive/thing to do in your game is to level up and get gear then eventually no matter what the whole game will devolve only into that. Blizzard basically sealed its fate with TBC when it effectively negated everything from Vanilla and told people to start from 0. In vanilla, at least some stuff from your leveling process carried over into max level play, not a lot but some of it so just rushing to 60 was not necessarily the best strategy for everyone but after TBC that went out the window entirely. Then they expansion after expansion made their own systems less and less relevant to a point where now the game has literary nothing else but auto-farming gear and raiding. Their design philosophy was essentially that "if it does not work on the first go it will never work". So instead of fixing the retarded elemental resistance system from Vanilla they just removed it. Instead of making professions less of a grind and more a choice(by adding more branching professions for example), they trivialized them. Instead of reusing old zones and content(new bosses or quests) they always basically threw them out. Instead of making dungeons with more shortcuts, they turned them into corridors and so on and so on. Professions make me especially angry because they would have been a great way to facilitate player interaction and would add more to the game besides just farming bosses for random drops. They could have put more emphasis on crafting, maybe by moving some of the top gear sets into the "craft-able only" category or having certain crucial items be exclusive to crafting(like ammunition for bows and guns). Maybe make some high-level mats from old zones useful for new gear. You know work and expand the systems they had instead of gutting them because the community did not develop a stiffy for farming elemental water. >>312156 I have been saying for years that almost everything WoW gets credit for is either stolen or made by the community(for example the spell bars were an addon before Blizz included them, same with quest helper and many more). The problem is most people have never touched anything besides WoW and basically assume that WoW was the first MMO.
>>312462 >you see a bloated budget is actually inherent to a genre because strawman
>>312515 >>312462 Huge budgets are kind of inevitable for MMOs since they are by default meant to be games that last for hundreds of hours and need to be internally very versatile(a.k.a you need a lot of animations, sound effect and unique models to actually fill up the world without copy pasting every three steps). That being said a lot of modern MMOs have bloated budgets because they are pursuing a line of design that only works with a bloated budget. Some YT celeb called it "roller coaster" type MMO and I think it fits. Because most MMOs these days are just very elaborate roller coasters where the players just look at a lot of set pieces and then click on something for X amount of minutes to get Y amount of reward and repeat. They do not feature any kind of game systems that let the player make their own fun or force them to make their own systems, its just all premade set in stone BS and unless you have tons of that BS than the players run out of stuff to do extremely quickly(check modern WoW where players blitz through all the content in a matter of days for reference). Something a bit more open would cost less overall but it would not take you from needing 100 mil. down 10k.
>>310861 I've heard people say Classic is far more populated than retail. Every expansion they've released in the past 7 or 8 years has followed the same pattern of "huge" initial player base buying the expansion > player base dies off to nothing within a few months because the game sucks > announce new expansion that promises to fix all the things that made players quit the current expansion. Blizzard is quite literally building their expansions with player retention as the only metric that matters. >>311937 MMO development also has the added pressure of need to recoup millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Add public companies, bean counters, investors, and quarterly reports, and it's a recipe for a shit show. So companies play it safe, copy what they think will work, and they end up with stale, boring, mediocre bullshit. Then the game goes into alpha/beta, players realize how awful it is, the devs try fix the problem, but because the devs were trying to play it safe instead of building a game from the ground up by following a vision... you get shit like Amazon's joke of an MMO. I apologize to the English language for my last few sentences. >>311213 The phrase an anon coined years ago is still relevant to this day: modern MMOs are like playing single player games with rude NPCs. >>312285 I had a good experience on a WoW private server a while back. This was during the server's launch. I was leveling a Warrior, and another Warrior of the other faction tried to gank me (and failed) in the mid 30s. He was a pretty good PvPer. Unfortunately for him, I'm as good as it gets when it comes to playing a Warrior. And so I proceeded to kill him over, and over, and over again during the trip to 60. Didn't matter if he had other players with him, I'd still beeline for his party and slaughter everyone remember kids, Sweeping Strikes + RFK rage armor clicky melts people. In the 50s, he just stopped fighting back because he knew it was pointless. >>312347 WoW was modeled off of Everquest, you fucking dickweed.
>>312721 >modern MMOs are like playing single player games with rude NPCs. I wish. Most players don't even interact at all because a bad interaction could get some fag to ban your account for "being a dick" or whatever bullshit they come up with. Everyone just goes solo or with a party that talks outside the game so they don't even interact with the other players. They have even less impact than NPCs.
>>312316 <Naruto doesn't really work in the form of a turn-based RPG <Hokuto no Ken doesn't really work in the form of a Musou / Yakuza game The two Naruto Path of the Ninja games on DS were pretty good and I've heard the Hokuto no Ken Musous were alright. I've played the Yakuza-engine one and the combat was alright but everything about the side content was shoehorned in. Though I did like the story. Companies should still experiment around with making licensed anime MMOs. Regardless if they'll turn out good or not, it's a simple way to get hundreds of thousands of weebs that love the specific anime to play the game. Then once they've realized they got that many people excited logged into the game they can decide rather they'd want to improve it or keep it the same as a cashgrab, unfortunately the latter happens most often but there can be the rare case of developers actually giving a shit. >>312560 That reminds me of this Canadian MMO that was in kickstarter last year or the year before and the developers got a handout of like a million Canadian dollars from their government and the game fell flat on its ass. Forget the name of it but the concept was it was like No Man's Sky but as an MMO.
>>312462 >defending subscription models I bet you defend Netflix and Onlyfans too.
>>312756 Server costs are negligible. It's ironic that you mention understanding the real world or how these things can be applied to reality without understanding the basics. The real upkeep with an MMO is in customer service, which ought to be offset by decentralizing the server distribution and letting people run their own servers. There is nothing stopping anyone from making a low budget MMORPG, releasing the binaries for hosting your own server, and occasionally releasing new expansions for people to buy. Nothing about the genre necessitates that it be modeled around the systems that it always has. The only argument anyone has proposed is "dude trust me MMO's cost a lot of money to develop" without actually outlining anything specific that makes that the case. An MMORPG can literally just be me setting the player limit in a Diablo 2 lobby to 600. The idea that having a lot of players in a single instance automatically multiplies the resource cost for a game 10 fold is ridiculous.
>>312741 Is there not a free-to-play MMO where the only items you have the option to buy with real money is cosmetics, nothing that gives you an advantage over someone in the game? I think depending on how that MMO looks and plays it can make a profit enough to sustain the game. You'd be surprised at how many people buy cosmetic shit in MMOs and people wouldn't complain about it being pay-to-win.
>>312767 >having a massive number of players in a role playing game is not the same thing as an MMORPG! Feel free to bestow upon me your arbitrary definition. Server costs are negligible, letting people host their own servers is fine, you've proposed no argument against it and we've seen it work before with WoW private servers just fine.
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>>312786 He is retarded but I he has half a point in there somewhere. Theoretically you could make a "decentralized" MMO that relies on private individuals to host their own servers with their own spin on things. Sort of like Minecraft servers function now but on a slightly deeper level. I could imagine a cut-down version of WoW and then licensing the SDK and the right to host servers to make back the money. Development of content would be offloaded onto "private" servers while your company would only bother with adding new engine features and graphical features. It could work, cut down costs and decentralize the MMO but it would require the maker to effectively accept having 0 creative control over their "game".
Hey look this thread is swiss cheese for some reason THANKS MARK
MMOs are dead as fuck since social media requires even less of an investment and people use it for the same shit. Why shit up a clan when you can drive a real human being to suicide and destroy their family too?
>>313233 This entire board is swiss cheese for "some reason". Scrolling back through a threads old posts just seems totally pointless because the likelihood that you'll actually be able to follow the train of thought with all the deleted posts is next to nothing. Either get in on these conversations as they're happening or be doomed to not know what the fuck anyone was trying to talk about after the fact.
>>312994 >you're retarded but everything you're saying is perfectly feasible
>>312994 if you make it decentralized then its not an MMO. if everybody hosts their own server to play alone or with a small group of friends then its not an MMO. if hundreds of people join one server instance then its an MMO, but if that were the case, why even bother making it decentralized and having tons of small depopulated servers, when the game most likely necesitates that you have hundreds of people online simultaneously and playing constantly to create an economy and a "living world"? successful private servers of an MMO still have a centralized server that everybody connects to. MMOs suck because everyones following the formula for the next big thing blissfully unaware that the last big thing only became the last big thing because it invented its own formula. there's like 6 big name MMOs in development right now and they all look, sound, feel, and play the same.
>>313426 >if you make it decentralized then its not an MMO. Not even remotely true. If you have underpopulated servers they aren't conducive to a good MMO experience. But the act of decentralizing the servers themselves does not mean every server has to be underpopulated. >if hundreds of people join one server instance then its an MMO, but if that were the case, why even bother making it decentralized and having tons of small depopulated servers, when the game most likely necesitates that you have hundreds of people online simultaneously and playing constantly to create an economy and a "living world"? Because it gives the consumer agency over their software. >successful private servers of an MMO still have a centralized server that everybody connects to. It sounds like the term decentralized is being either misused or misunderstood. WoW private servers are decentralized in the sense that they're just re-implementations of the same FOSS core most servers use, but with their own tweaks and changes. Ignoring the fact most of these used to violate the license by not publishing their changes, this system was and is ideal because it means I the player got to choose which server addressed my needs in terms of both ethics and gameplay. There are WoW private servers where the scale of the end-game content is tuned for less players, there are WoW servers where the game is tweaked so the focus is entirely on max level PvP, there are servers where the focus is entirely on role playing with custom texture and model packages, so on and so forth. Just like there is every wacky creation imaginable on GMOD there are wacky creations that were made with the code made available through over a decade of reverse engineering the server side scripting for WoW. In a world where software is ethical it doesn't matter if a developer is a fucking retard, or if they abandon their game because it isn't churning out enough revenue. Just like TF2 still sees community developments despite the fact Valve abandoned it WoW was worked on despite the fact Blizzard ignored pleas for older expansions until recently. When the consumer have complete control over the software they're purchasing and only then will the "MMORPG" genre be saved from itself. As long as you're still at the whims of a developer and a central authority and merely licensing access to a black box server somewhere in the world the genre will always be doomed to fail.
>>313430 the software might be decentralized but if everyone connects to the same server to be able to play the game properly, then your game is still centralized. when that server is gone everyone will scather or gather in a new server to repeat the same mistake. there is no way to make an MMO decentralized and populated. so dont give me lip about muh software ownership. if you spent money making a game you would want to see a return. pretty easy to talk smack about software freedom when you got nothing to contribute and can only consume, you have no dog in the fight. you could argue about making the software opensource or freeware after the main server dies, but developers still gotta eat and make money.
>>313505 Once again you're treating a genre uniquely for no tangible reason. Just as I wouldn't accept Left 4 Dead having only developer owned servers I won't accept an MMO having only developer owned servers. You're arguing that MMO's are so unbelievably shit that the only way they can sell enough copies to justify making them is to actively exploit their consumers with degenerate pay models. >but left 4 dead would have never been developed in the first place if they didn't lock down who is allowed to run servers for the game and make custom content for it This is how ridiculous you sound. You can make the argument that no developer is willing to take a financial hit based on the ethics behind how they distribute their software, I'd even agree with you mostly. But the notion that this is some sort of financial impossibility is just wrong. This has nothing to do with whether or not something can be done. It has been done, we've seen it done. I can say that no AAA game will get developed anymore unless it is filled with microtransactions. That is a relatively true statement, because companies have seen how insanely profitable it is. This can both be true and morally reprehensible at the same time. I can say that the entire industry will continue to move towards mobile and we'll steadily see the eradication of real games. But these market realities have no bearing on the argument that I'm making, which is that it is possible to make an MMO without a billion dollar budget and give your customers the kind of agency over their software that they deserve, like being able to play the fucking game they bought regardless of whether or not you think they said bad words in the game or even have an internet connection.
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>>313541 >left 4 dead >mmo
>>313607 >can't comprehend simple analogies I wonder what life must be like going through the day without an inner monologue. Sounds peaceful.
>>313613 >i-i-its just an analogy bro yeah, and its shit. you can't compare a 4 player game to an MMO, you dumb nigger. thats why diablo 2 let you play LAN, and thats why L4D and Diablo 2 are not MMOs.
>>313620 It's a fine analogy. The comparison is in that there is no reason I should not be allowed to run my own custom L4D server in the same way there's no reason I shouldn't be allowed to run a WoW server. I'm super curious how you reconcile why one is permissible while the other is not.
>>313640 >permisible who the fuck talked about permision? im talking about making the game functional and you go on a rant about MUH FOSS MUH LIBERTY, you can't even read the context of the posts you reply to.
>>313644 There have been WoW private servers that have seen hundreds of thousands of active players. So the argument that the act of self-hosting results in some magically instant low player bases is bizarre. Are you going to hold a consistent position or just dance around making an argument or saying anything of substance? My point has nothing to do with FOSS. L4D isn't FOSS. 99% of games aren't FOSS. The issue isn't about free software, it's more about DRM and self-hosting.
>>313649 my position hasn't changed. but you and tornigger keep flipflopping around and moving the goalposts from funding to foss to instances to ownership. im not gonna go over it again. you can read my posts by following my ID which hasn't changed luckily because my ISP decided to stick me with one IP during this period of time.
>>313652 No one has said anything about funding FOSS projects. You talk about flip flopping and tracking the conversation yet you're just making random shit up that you can't actually quote. Unless you have something you want to directly dispute or argue against stop responding to my posts with inane bullshit you fucking retard.
>>313656 read from the beginning if you're gonna talk shit (2).
<<313657 >Unless you have something you want to directly dispute or argue against stop responding to my posts with inane bullshit you fucking retard.
>>313426 >if you make it decentralized then its not an MMO. >successful private servers of an MMO still have a centralized server that everybody connects to This is literary just arguing semantics. Decentralizing server hosting capabilities is not the same as turning the into a single player experience. The "multiplayer" part of MMO will always require some kind of a server to connect said players. You cannot work your way around that but you can work around who can and cannot host them. >MMOs suck because everyones following the formula True. >When the consumer have complete control over the software they're purchasing and only then will the "MMORPG" genre be saved from itself. Also true. Why are you two arguing again?
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>>313335 Its retarded because its still a huge financial risk. Even a stripped down MMO takes millions to develop and there is virtually no guarantee that you will make that money back. It only alleviates some of the expenses but again it does not shrink a 100 million budget into a 10 million one. Mitigating a problem is not the same as solving it. Plain and simple. >>313652 >multiple people make multiple statements <Y-you flipflopper, stop it I am winning.
>>313680 No one has made a single statement about "funding FOSS projects" in this thread. Not one single post even mentions that. I'm not calling him a "flip flopper", that's what he accused me of doing for trying to pin down what the fuck he was actually arguing against. >Even a stripped down MMO takes millions to develop and there is virtually no guarantee that you will make that money back Saying this over and over again won't make it any more true. And it won't make anyone accept morally abhorrent payment schemes when we already know it's not only viable but an objectively better consumer experience to have self-hosted servers. All games are expensive to make. All games are huge financial risks. You're just applying every issue with game development and pretending that they're unique to a genre that is literally only defined by an indefinite player limit on instances. Your preconceived notion of what you expect an MMO to be is the only reason you think they are inherently expensive.
>>311532 ReImagine just got a big update. The most important parts are: Material Tank updated to hold many different types of collectible items to save tons of storage space Shinjuku UnderWonderGround returned and rebalanced WILDCAT mode added to dungeons that didn't previously have it And smirk
>>312215 there are private servers of those still active
>>314336 >Material tank Fucking nice My inventory was near full and stuff I needed to not throw away
Anyone here play FFXI, like a private server of it? I remember like a year ago there was a thread up of anons playing on the Eden private server.
Since WoW is reported to no longer be #1 in players, do you guys think private servers are going to jump back up a bit in population?
>>315178 That entirely depends on how much Blizzard will fuck up TBC classic. If it somehow turns out OK than I would not expect much of a growth but if its going to develop like Classic did then I would expect a massive outpouring of players to private servers.
>>315201 Well they're already selling character boosts and paid for cosmetics, which is far worse than the simpler changes they made with Vanilla classic. I'm just wondering how long re-releasing the same expansions will last with normalfags because even the few people I knew irl who played classic dropped it as soon as they hit max level. That plus the news that FFXIV is topping WoW's numbers makes me hope people are finally tired of rehashing the same product at least when it comes to Blizzard IPs. I just wish private servers would actually do something unique beyond "hey guys we've got a 3x multiplier instead of a 2x" because they all do nothing and players drop out because of that. Server-wide events, custom content... imagine how big one of them could have gotten if they'd come up with the battlepet idea before Blizzard did?
>>315255 There are private servers that do interesting things. TBC5Man in particular is one of the best custom servers I've ever played and is tuned quite well. All the raiding is designed for 5 man groups instead of 25. Plus there's ascension WoW which is a "classless" server where you can get any talent. In practice it's a bit of a shit-show but the idea is innovative. I think more and more servers are starting to actually innovate and expand on the game these days. The issue is usually that the people running these projects are always sketchy subhuman slavs who refuse to release any of their code in violation of the license for cmangos which they all use as their core code base. Speaking of which there's a 3.3.5 private server called chromiecraft which is fully FOSS and releasing level brackets every month or two to actually develop the open source code for the game by getting people to test the world thoroughly. The WoW private server scene would probably be light years ahead if it wasn't almost entirely comprised of retarded greedy slavs trying to fuck each other over constantly.
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>>315255 >selling character boosts and paid for cosmetics That is indeed bad but not really a game breaker. it all depends on how far they will let it go. If it end with a few boosted clowns parading their bought mounts nobody will really give a shit and TBC classic will be a "success". If however it spirals into more shit in the ingame store, more boosted gold farmers, more hackers and more morons chasing after max level for the sake of speedrunning black temple then it will be fall apart. Blizzard tends to forget that on its own WoW, even at its absolute best, is shitty diablo clone. What made it special was the community surrounding it(that was of course vaguely informed by some of the design choices but those were more accidental than intentional) . If they let that community rot long enough with gold farmers, boosters and other pests it will fall apart. >I just wish private servers would actually do something unique There were a couple of servers that tried that but almost always they fell apart because of shit head management. Primal WoW wanted to simulate progression from Vanilla to Wotlk but the retards running the server could not accept that Vanilla content is easier with Wotlk classes and instead of fixing bugs or class balance they wasted time creating bizarre solutions to make old dungeons hard again. Which nobody wanted or cared about because why else would you like to experience Vanilla content on a Wotlk client. Before dying and merging with some other server they had 100 active players, they started with like 500-800. Ascension started with an interesting idea(classless WoW) but quickly turned into a blatant cash grab that was buggy and unbalanced on top of that. The only server in recent memory that is doing this custom content thing right is Turtle WoW. They are essentially just taking the Vanilla framework and building on top of it with new zones, dungeons and world bosses. Its actually really interesting but I can already see there seeds of retardation that could destroy it from inside. For example they are willing to bring back beta features like the survival profession which lets you basically have always rested exp gains or give mage the ability to unlock locked boxes but then they turn around and refuse to do anything about the class balance. So everything that sucked about playing a druid, paladin, shaman or hunter in Vanilla still sucks but hey rogues can now disguise themselves as trogs and you can play hardcore mode where if you die your character is deleted.
>>315052 I was one of the ones who played last year. You need Korean-tier autism to keep up there. There is something about playing an MMO before that makes you not want to replay it as much which was the case for our GM and such. Due to those factors and the low player turn out, it ended up being mostly me and one other anon who clocked the most hours. Not to mention there was some friction, drama, between us so it wasn't exactly the ideal group experience. GM had a hint of elitism around him. He needed to loosen up since we were nowhere near to being an endgame guild so there was no reason to talk shit as much as he did. Also, he mostly dipped out of playing (in favor of other games) since only 2 of us were on most of the time. I don't blame him for doing that at all. I set my expectations too high, again. As for that other anon, me and him didn't get along very well. Let me point out that it was both our first time playing FFXI. We both had different ideas how to enjoy the MMO. I was more of an Explorer while he was likely an Achiever. All he cared about was making a ton of in-game money and treating the experience as a time waster. He openly bragged about watching moe anime on a SECOND SCREEN while doing the fishing mini-game all day. He despised doing the story missions and hated teaming up with players. Like holy fuck dude, if all you wanted was to see numbers go up then just play Diablo II or something. Really, no one gives a crap if you have a billion Gil in the bank. Making money eventually becomes a chore and it sucks. All I wanted was to play the actual game and progress to its end. I had to do that with other guilds since ours was often dead. I completed the main scenario and progressed through most of the expansion stories before I quit. I would have preferred to walk this journey with fellow anons but unfortunately it never happened. You need to hate yourself in some level to put up with this game's slow, immersive bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I had fun but isn't the point of these private servers before the QoL/Casualization changes supposed to be enjoying the experience with friends? Otherwise, you would have to rigidly poopsock and minmax your way into being a one-man army. By that point, you've played yourself whether you are aware of the fact or not. Yes, I'm still mad. Jewing your guildmate is never okay.
>>315378 You guys should've picked Nasomi instead of Eden. It has a bigger player population and the best expansion included in it. Would've had more fun playing that and maybe people would've stuck around and wanted to do the content.
>>315486 I signed up for the old school experience and got it so I'm more or less satisfied. I know such suffering is not everybody's cup of tea and that is fine too. The best part was not needing to pay a subscription for this 15 year old content. And I've played 2 other MMOs to endgame back to back before that one so I am taking a break from this genre for a long while.
>>315378 I played there too, and the 'tism is expected when playing with anons. Though the moe lover being soulless was a given. How else could you enjoy moe anime? That being said, FFXI is definitely a game you need to go into with a strong "enjoy the journey" mentality. My first experience with the game was with friends and it was a very enjoyable one. >>315486 Nasomi has been dying for 2 years. Nasomi's autism has led him to refuse any kind of help from the community. Which means that he's policing, enforcing, dealing with bug reports, fixing bugs, implementing and releasing new content, maintaining the infrastructure, and manages the community. That's way too much for a single person, and some areas suffered. Mainly, there's barely been any content in the past 2-3 years (or whenever he released ToAU), and the server has been overrun with hackers. Zone crashing, automated tagging, duping, terrain exploits, etc, etc. The population's left the server in droves, and it was what led me to reroll on Eden in the first place. Go look at Nasomi's population numbers now, it struggles to break 400 players on peak hours.
>>315273 >retarded greedy slavs If it were only Slavs it would be easy to single them out but this is a almost universal private server problem. They are always trying to fuck each other over even though realistically it guarantees them nothing. On that same note I think a huge problem is that every server seems to be stuck in a "expansion mentality". Meaning they are exclusively focused on mimicking the feel of one specific expansion and ignore everything else. So instead of experimenting with Vanilla content but with TBC or Wotlk balance they only make copy paste of TBC/Wotlk. Instead of trying to make the best version of the game they can they are chasing only specific expansions and that is simply too limited for any kind of actual innovation.
>>315632 Well that really sucks about Nasomi. I really like Chains of Promathia and it's the only private server as far as I know that has it. Not gonna pay the monthly sub for the official server.
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>>315255 I want to elaborate on this a little bit more because it's really my biggest gripe with MMOs beyond power creep and min-maxing meta bullshit. Even in the best scenario where things aren't automated and you actually have to socialize and interact with people to do things or get places, there's so much downtime between getting everybody together and actually running dungeons and raids, or even between point a and point b. Out of the entire weeks of my life spent playing WoW I don't want to know how much was spent just standing or sitting around. Why not include some minigame, or social challenge? Duels are a thing sure, but why not craftable puzzle boxes or board games or anything else completely novel and entertaining? Blizzard made bank off of battle pets, but I bet my ass if they made Hearthstone an in-game feature that alone could have saved subscription numbers. Like this anon >>315378 said, people are just doing other stuff while waiting for the game to get somewhere. Why leave a game so full of empty space and useless time? The peggle add-on was the best add-on ever. >>315795 It is an absolutely ridiculous fantasy of mine but I would give my left nut for a team to release a fan-made expansion for Vanilla/TBC. Completely new content, zones, class, cities, quests, talents...
>>315795 >If it were only Slavs it would be easy to single them out but this is a almost universal private server problem. They are always trying to fuck each other over even though realistically it guarantees them nothing. But has there ever been a non-eastern european hosted server before? They almost all seem to be made by slavs. I guess technically nost was a french made server, but nost was pretty unique in the devs not being ultra scum fucks. >So instead of experimenting with Vanilla content but with TBC or Wotlk balance they only make copy paste of TBC/Wotlk. Instead of trying to make the best version of the game they can they are chasing only specific expansions and that is simply too limited for any kind of actual innovation. Well for a long time it would be silly to focus on game development rather than emulation because the emulation simply wasn't there yet. If a developer couldn't even script a boss fight then expanding on the core game balance and design was kind of goofy. But now that the core emulation for the first 3 WoW expansions is basically perfected, and in some cases arguably just straight up better than the "real" thing we're seeing more servers customize things in interesting ways.
>>315803 >a fan-made expansion for Vanilla/TBC. That is sort of what Turtle WoW is doing. Its not exactly all out yet but they have already managed to incorporate high elves and goblins into Vanilla. Now they are working on new areas, quests and dungeons and they seem to be making solid progress. My only concern with them is that they might fall into the age old Vanilla trap of "shit = hard => good". So instead of fixing obvious vanilla problems they just declare them "part of the experience" and then wonder why no one wants to join a server where half the classes are broken. Thus far it does not seem that way as they showed willingness to fix some balance issues, like giving paladins back their holy strike ability. But if you know anything about Vanilla class balance that is far from fixing the core of the problem. But its on the right track. >non-eastern european hosted server before? I think plenty are from the west they just hide behind easter-european hosts to skirt around Blizzard lawyers. I think warmane is one such example(although I could be wrong). > silly to focus on game development rather than emulation The things is that most did no focus on either. The ball crushing majority of servers I experienced had put very little effort into perfecting their emulation, best case scenario they would create workarounds. Warmane especially was more focused on denying the existence of bugs rather than fixing them. Besides emulation up to Wotlk was more or less 100% figured out around 2015. Its just that most of these servers were super lazy and asking them to do anything besides the absolute bare minimum was treated like asking for their kidneys. Seriously at one point I suggested on a low pop realm that we should be allowed to que both dungeons and BGs to shorten que time on both ends and the response I got was made me question whether I did not just ask for free T10 set.
>>315986 >pic haha lol what if she put it on just kidding haha
>>315803 >so much downtime between getting everybody together This is because MMO designers often conflate tedium with challenge. It super obvious in Vanilla WoW since well over half the "challenge" is nothing more than just a tedious grind. The legendary weapons are not about beating some challenge that tests your skills like with the Benediction questline. Instead they are just retarded grind fests that make you and 40 people re-run the same instance X amount of times so that 1 dude can get a cool weapon. The funny thing is that the further down Vanilla you go the harder those weapons are to get but only because the grind gets more and more ridiculous. The requirements to get Atiesh make getting all the other legendaries look like complete jokes. Although a huge part of the problem is that most MMOs do not bother with having actual solo content. Instead they just trivialize group content by automating it.
Would you agree/disagree that WoW ruined the MMORPG format?
>>317260 yes, though most of the blame should be upon other mmos failing to innovate.
>>317260 I think the bigger damage has been done by Koreanshit.
>>317267 Normalfags turned to koreanshit because it was the only alternative to WoW after 15+ years of everything being a clone.Developers literally act like there's no other way to design an MMO.
Never played WoW before and picked up a subscription a month ago. Leveling is fun, world pvp is one of the best parts of the game. I'll be trying to do a quest but there's some alliance dude chilling there so you I sap him and quickly skip dialogue just to get the quest done. Big fun. Doing the reverse, camping an area so War Mode alliance can't complete a quest is really mean and satisfying. Dungeons are cool if you have somebody better than you to remind you what the mechanics are. Timing keys is really hectic and you can have some great experiences. My stack picked up a Bear tank to run a dungeon. Every pull he just aoe'd the pack and then shimmied backwards for some reason. He would only get aggro from the front couple mobs and the casters had free reign on the group. It was completely troll. At some point we just couldn't keep going because he never had aggro and although our healer was cracked he couldn't manage 5 different players (ranged mobs would literally los onto healer because tank had 0 threat) taking damage from different trash. We lost the key but it was fucking hilarious when somebody started hard-flaming the tank in chat and he responded in caps spanish. The moment to moment story is pretty terrible, but the overall story is nice. All in all I'm probably only going to finish out the month and let my sub end there, but I had a fun time with it. Why do people say shadowlands is a bad expansion? Is it the poz stuff? There is very little and although its annoying I honestly didn't notice until it was pointed out to me. I never played wow before so I have no idea what changed and etc. that made new WoW terrible.
>>317288 you need to download third party addons for boss mechanics you have to keep grinding every week or you cant keep up. your class might not have enough dps or utility to be picked list goes on >>317267 >>317269 feels like truth is in the middle
>>315279 so what was everything that sucked about playing a druid, paladin, shaman, or hunter in vanilla?
>>317288 Playing WoW for the first time it probably plays alright because you have no context for any of the issues people have. Basically every WoW expansion is fun for the first month or two. The issue is that after the first couple of months is when you run into the fundamental flaws with the expansions design. Some of these are tolerable depending on the kind of player you are, some aren't. Legion for example, which is generally regarded as a "good-ish" expansion, made me quit within a few weeks because I didn't RNG the legendary I wanted before raiding and they nerfed the fuck out of my class. The fact that the class you're invested in can be radically changed all the sudden is a huge issue in new constantly developing WoW expansions. It's one of the biggest selling points of private servers and going back to older expansions in fact. You know exactly how each raid tier plays out, you know what gear you'll have access to and when, your spells and abilities won't suddenly do 30% more or less damage based on a patch. The game just is how it is and you get to go into it knowing exactly what the decisions you're making will entail. The issues with retail/modern WoW plague people that have played the game for a long time much more than they plague random new players just casually checking it out. Classes have been gutted in one expansion only to have the abilities that were removed reintroduced back to the game later as features and "new" abilities. Entire systems that worked fine for a decade are removed and reintroduced with shittier clunkier systems just because they need another box to tick for an expansions new thing. They've solved the issue of a perpetually developing MMORPG by just taking shit away from you at the end of each expansion then giving it back in progressively more contrived and tedious ways. The games development is plagued by designers that are obsessed with having perfect systems, but they're all completely incompetent and disconnected from how the average player experiences the game so those systems end up being unrewarding and exhausting. Developers are on record constantly contradicting themselves and stating things like "we have data showing people do X thing a lot so therefore it was a well designed system", completely ignoring the fact that everyone hated the system itself and the only reason it had high engagement was the fact the system gave rewards relevant to player power and progression. Modern WoW developers are autistic in the worst possible way you can be. They see numbers and ignore all the context surrounding them and base every decision they make in a cold analytical way that results in the most anti-fun retarded shit imaginable. WoW has both some of the only competent MMORPG game design while also having some of the single most incompetent development decisions made in game development history.
>>317616 They all pay the "hybrid class tax". Essentially blizzard hired a bunch of Everquest chuds to help run and design wow and those guys just hated classes that could do more than one thing at once. So they hobbled all the aforementioned classes in different ways to make up for the fact that they can do more than one thing. Paladins are glorified buff bots with no real options when it comes to dealing damage or tanking. So out of three specs the only one viable is holy. They have a total of 1 damage dealing ability and on top of that there is no gear for them in the game. So for the most part they feel like shitty priests. Also unlike any other class in the game they get 5 minute buffs while everyone else gets 30 minute ones. So have fun rebuffing the whole group every 5 minutes Retards defend this by saying that if you overgear its actually. Because obviously all the other classes are shit until EQ Druids are much the same. Three specs but only one is actually viable as all the others either have no gear to support them(feral druid) or are simply so badly put together that even a "best in slot" character is still hot garbage(moonkin). Shamans are pretty much the same as the above two but unlike the other two they get windfury which makes them sometimes OK at PVP. Hunters are fucked because they have to use mana and perpetually keep on leveling their own pets(while also feeding them and buying ammo) again with little to no gear to support them. So they are constantly out of money and mana. The thing is a lot of these issues are very easy to resolve. Reduce mana cost, buff damage, add one or two abilities but Blizzard never bothered until TBC to fix any of it. The worst part is that this generated an entire generation of retards who think that this is somehow the natural state of things and will insist that Paladins being buff bots or that shamans just spammning healing wave is good design and "part of the class fantasy".
>>317296 On the one hand, WoW stagnated multiple generations of MMOs. I wrote above that publishers and suits were an issue because they saw that WoW was massively successful and thought incorrectly that all you needed to do was copy a bunch of the elements of the game and release it, not realizing that games shouldn't really work like this, and that it'll take more than a carbon copy of a product people already own to make them switch, especially considering the time/emotional investment. Publishers unironically thought they'd have millions of people lining up to buy the same thing again and stick around. On the other hand, Gook Grinders took as many terrible elements of MMOs and hashed them together into an abomination. My personal bias against BDO notwithstanding, the computer cafe culture really lead to time and money sinks usually heavy emphasis on the latter being confused for vidya. As a whole publishers and developers are coming up with more and more horrendous ways to introduce P2W features into games. The BDO "value" pack (a subscription under a new name) for instance does everything from increasing bank spaces and upping your inventory space and carry weight (in a game where the currency has weight) to lowering the tax on their socialist auction house. You are legitimately gimping yourself by not either buying one outright or hoping you can catch one that someone throws onto the market. The worst part is that it feels like we're caught in some shit tier timeline where fun MMO's are either killed before they can be released or are vaporware for stealing people's hard earned cash. Which is a shame because a sandbox MMO done even half decently might illicit enough of a response for developers to try and go that route.
>>317862 sgreed Also gook grinders took the worst parts of WoW and monetized it. >Want a weapon decent enough to enter a raid? Theres a cash shop for that.
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>>317296 >feels like truth is in the middle It was a combination of factors or steps if you will: First step was taken by Blizzard when they introduced a MMO model that was both successful and easy to reproduce. The second was the western industry nuking itself out of orbit by trying to compete with WoW by making shitty WoW clones, leaving the market empty and ripe for harvest. The third step was koreans slowly getting a share of the emptied market simply by not making literal 1:1 WoW clones. Fourth step was them refocusing hard on P2W cash grabs. The thing is that there is genuine and real demand for MMOs that much was made clear in 2004 by WoW. The problem is that most of the industry heads did not realize that wow was a "flash in the bottle" kind of scenario that you cannot really replicate with a single game. Half the reason WoW was successful was because it built on top of the Warcraft series which started in 1994. Meaning that technically Blizzard ran a 10 year long campaign before they released WoW. The second half of its success came from relying in the new crowds over to MMOs so most of their customer had literary 0 expectations and standards when it came to the genre so even a basic bitch Diablo clone like WoW seemed amazing to them. Obviously none of that can be replicated with just a single game. If the industry got that then the first WoW clones would be appearing at earliest around 2010 and would be based on already long running IPs. Instead they swarmed the market with shitty wow clones and immediately crashed and burned simply by virtue of being shitty wow clones. And they kept it up for long enough that now the term MMO is almost synonymous with WoW. So any new MMO is automatically measured not on the basis of merit but on the basis of who much more WoW it is than WoW. Of course that is a game you will always lose simply because you cannot out-WoW World of Warcraft. This is something I realized this when my local gaming magazine compared Age of Conan with WoW and basically concluded that Age of Conan is not WoW. They did the same for several other MMOs afterwards and the diagnosis was always the same, its not WoW. Shocking, I know. So even when they were writing about other games they were still tacitly advertising WoW.
>>317929 >Half the reason WoW was successful was because it built on top of the Warcraft series which started in 1994. Meaning that technically Blizzard ran a 10 year long campaign before they released WoW. Feels like no mmo ever thinks about this part when they make the game >And they kept it up for long enough that now the term MMO is almost synonymous with WoW. So any new MMO is automatically measured not on the basis of merit but on the basis of who much more WoW it is than WoW. >They did the same for several other MMOs afterwards and the diagnosis was always the same, its not WoW. Shocking, I know. So even when they were writing about other games they were still tacitly advertising WoW. Agreed, and that kills innovation in the mmo industry, no modern game can stand on its own two feet without a WoW comparison.
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>>317935 >>317929 I feel like now the only way to recapture the mmo 'magic' is to completely forgo the traditional route - have nothing like wow. no fantasy, no hard classes, no dungeons? A very different type of game, which doesn't even mention mmo. Not just to please journos but to attract audience with new shit. What would you want to be kept in the game and what removed?
>>318056 Well, there was an mmo that piqued my interest until i saw the graphics It involved building starbases that looked like kowloon as well as ship building.
>>318056 >WoW is traditional Classic nu/v/
>>318079 everquest has been supplanted and devoured by wow no point in getting angry over it
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My dream MMO is probably something like Blade and Soul, but multiplayer. The first dour acts were really really good at the time, but every act after that started seeming smaller and more single-player. Nowadays it seems every time I get my boyfriend to hop onto BnS so we can catch up on story, it immediately throws us into solo instances despite us being in a party, and never let's us rejoin each other again unless it's to run to the next instance. The combat was fun as hell and the fashion can be so adorable. I love character customization and I love outfits. I have, like, 200 outfits and I only paid for 1 of them (and in hindsight, even though I dislike the game now, I think I should have paid for one more outfit, the pinky bear one) Vindictus has fun combat and the armors can be pretty neat. I crafted a lot of outfits, but I hate how almost everybody else looks. Medieval sort of style game but every player I see is in some ugly office slut outfits or micro bikini trash or some other modern outfit that is out of place and hideous. The only one I appreciate is the people that use the blood streaks tattoos/makeup and color it white so they look bukkake'd That amuses me. And, again, I do like the combat quite a bit. It was especially good early on when it was new to me. My favorite is the hammer, but most impressive is Evie's magic. Time after time, magic gameplay has been really not engaging to me, but hers felt great. Honestly really nice, and that's after I had played BnS which had horrible magic gameplay. Force Master honestly worst class in the game. I have played a bit of FF14. Level 40 bard, something around that. I really enjoy making music, it's one of my favorite features. I usually do classic zelda tunes and people always clap. It is a bit hard though. I still fumble with the keys to play music, but it wouldn't feel right to use an addon to auto-play. Combat-wise, the game is perfectly OK. It's like World of Warcraft to me. Classic hotkey gameplay. It's been so immensely long since I played WoW that I honestly can't tell you which I like more. The story in FF is engaging enough. The side-quests aren't. I realize I forgot to mention story for Vindictus, it's absolute complete and utter shit that only gets worse the longer you play. The first season is actually enjoyable in a "this is pretty anime" way. Season two was jank, three was worse, and it just becomes so dang boring. FF, on the other hand, seems to have a nice plot going. Eventually I'll go back to playing it with my fiancee and get to the end of the free trial. If my best friend is free, we may sub to the game and play as a group with her blue mage. I just want cool combat and lots and lots and lots of cute things, honestly. Ideally a game where skill can significantly compensate for poor gear, like Blade and Soul used to be. (still is fun to play that game and do old dungeons really early in leveling and try to win despite the weak party/gear/etc.)
>>318104 >Blade and Soul I went back to get ready for unreal engine 4. What a fucking nightmare, within minutes i remembered why i left. Here i am complaining about WoW when BnS exists. >Force Master honestly worst class in the game. Thats not Blademaster >I have played a bit of FF14. Level 40 bard, Only people who cleared ARR have a say . Not because your opinion isn't valid, but because FFXIV is pretty shit when you're in ARR.
>>318111 >Thats not Blademaster I heard a lot of bad things about blademaster, and it's not my favorite or even top 5, but it's really fun. Fire spec is pretty, and elegant, but not very engaging, it's lightning that really grabbed my attention. It was my first attempt at a solo character back when they had that 'get to level 45 for in this span of time and get this outfit" for the warlock thing. Warlock seemed like shit and I didn't want to use warlock to do it, so I made a BM. I enjoy deflecting with careful timing, and it overall feels like a really stable character to play as. That's not nearly as thrilling as some classes, but it's steady and strong. A little too stiff and slow. Blade Dancer is one of my top picks. I solo'd tons of stuff with the use of bladeguard and vortex to deflect everything. It was rough, but I felt like a gosh dang monster. Just like Blademaster, lightning is the best spec. Actually, I think lightning is ALWAYS the best spec, isn't it? In every class, that seems to be the ideal (until they started adding third specs). I never personally had a lightning assassin, but I did play one and that was pretty gosh dang strong and fun too. Hard though. Destroyer DESTROYS. It wasn't at all what I wanted going into it, but it was fun. I was hoping to feel like power and muscle given form, to feel like I have a giant axe that stops for nobody. Instead, I anicancel so hard that I don't even hit them, I just wave the axe like a magic wand and their health drains. Still cool though, and fun. I love picking people up too. Kung Fu Master is SUPER fun. I tried wind and fire and fire felt better. I tried to get into the third spec when that came out but it was difficult for me to adapt to. I feel badass with that class though. I bring the slaps. It's so fast and radical, and much more easily defensive than Blade Dancer. Maybe it's because I played BD first, so I wasn't as good in general back then, but I do think KFM is designed with better survivability. Warden is what I wanted Destroyer to be. Warden is swinging MASS. Warden is why I tried Vindictus! Feels OP and EZ though. Without even being good at the class I was able to breeze through pretty much everything. I could do dungeons that my other characters needed to be real careful going through and I could be careless the whole time. I have Resilience, I can weather the storm, frenzy, and recover faster than anything could possibly take me down. Just a juggernaut. An absolute juggernaut. Archer was the newest class last I played, and I had thus far the impression that ranged play was SHIT because gunslinger is SHIT. 0 fun. No good. Unfun trash. Force Master is ranged too, the devs just can't do ranged well except with Summoner but that's different. Yet despite my expectations, zen archer is SO good. It's incredibly fun. Warp around the battlefield loosing arrows, laying traps, diving in close for a big hit and dashing right back out, stacking things and nuking and dang that's a fun class. And so strong. I could solo things as archer that I barely could as warden. Thanks to my BF and my BFF(I ain't leveling a dozen characters myself), I think I played every class in the game at least a little bit, besides warlock which never sounded good. And based on me playing way too much of this game over way too many years, Force Master is shit. Gunslinger might be worse, I couldn't even remember it when I wrote that. I'm glad I never made one on my account. >FF14 is shit in ARR I've enjoyed it despite that, so that's a good sign. I hope there's no solo-only stuff to deal with, I play MMOs for group play and group play only and I'm still salty about BnS ruining that
>>317929 >>317935 It is the reason WoW was so popular when it got released, and is still a one-of-a-kind thing not many others have done. Even other MMOs at the time didn't have much pre-existing story or audience to start from. >Agreed, and that kills innovation in the mmo industry, no modern game can stand on its own two feet without a WoW comparison. This is, I think, as much a problem with suits as it is with the game designers. (((Directors))) look at business and numbers and see WoW is #1 and everyone likes it, so they tell the devs to make the game more like WoW. The devs get it drilled into their heads that this game has to be like WoW or it won't succeed, even it goes against the project or design philosophy. Which came first? >>318056 >What would you want to be kept in the game and what removed? Keep >A player-based economy where people can rely on others for most of their professions/materials/services >World and art design that stays consistent and interesting >Compelling writing for people who actually like RPGs and reading >Freedom in shaping someone's class/character (even if it's just choosing your own talents and skills like WoW used to let you do) >A steady sense of progression that isn't locked to end-game content or large-person raids Remove <Automatic quest guides and map markers <Group finding tools <Shitty daily quests that are completely uninvolved and repetitive <Links to real-world money (microtransactions, cosmetics, boosts, WoW tokens), unlikely to happen <Chinese gold sellers, also unlikely to happen <Basically anything that kills motivation for social interaction or replaces it with something automated or buyable
>>318131 Its fun but its shit, climbing pvp is a chore, almost always bottom tier dps. I don't need to be #1 but being consistently bottom is morale breaking compared to every other class. At least when another classes at the bottom you can say well at least warlock provides some utility and buffs, not so for BM. >blade dancer I like Blade dancer just fine, nowhere near BM levels >destroyer Used to be top tier until the nerfs now destroyers lament the good old days. >KFM Yeah people who master that class really enjoy it, i keep wanting to give it a shot but i wimp out because im afraid itll be difficult >Warden Was fun >Archer I hear nothing but good things, even people who like Gunslingers prefer Archers >I've enjoyed it despite that, so that's a good sign. Then you'll enjoy the rest > hope there's no solo-only stuff to deal with There are for story only, and there's been progressively more of it, kind of irritating because it also syncs your gear. >>318143 >The devs get it drilled into their heads that this game has to be like WoW or it won't succeed Which is a shame because like the other anon said, these games cannot out WoW world of warcraft. So they're shooting themselves in the foot.
>>318205 >almost always bottom tier dps A difference in outlook. "Can you win?" is all that matter to me, not "Can you win quickly?" ...Though the further things got in the patches, the more DPS-checks seemed to creep in. Still, BM can do it. I think the community obsessing too much over being as overly geared as possible defeats much of the appeal in a game with combat so skill-intensive. Gear is a crutch, not a requirement. As for PvP, I was surprisingly able to do well back in the early days when they were especially considered a joke, and as recently as two years ago rose to Silver in a trivial amount of time, and felt I could get gold. It's not much to people that prefer pvp, I don't care for it myself, so Gold is considered really good to me. I go such long stretches of time without PvP that every time I return to it, I feel surprised how profitable it is (when at pre-raid-tier gear) >>318143 ><Group finding tools The best way to experience MMOs is by bringing your own friends with you into it. Sharing or close to that spot is making friends with people casually throughout your adventures, some that last and some that don't. If you don't have friends, I do wonder if it's better to have some kind of group-forming tool so the people working in the same area are able to gravitate to each other. On the other hand, if they're made to pursue group-forming without a built in structure for it, maybe that's a lot better for them both in improving their social skills and in having a satisfying experience, as groups you didn't have to make yourself may not feel very attached. People may coldly separate right after and little bonding occurs. Would those types of people have ever grouped up if that structure wasn't provided for them? beyond that I think I wholly agree. Even that one thing is just a matter of "good idea maybe, but I'd have to think about more"
>If you don't have friends, I do wonder if it's better to have some kind of group-forming tool so the people working in the same area are able to gravitate to each other. I've thought about that too but if someone isn't willing to find people or make friends in an MMO, why bother playing one in the first place? You could say they're looking for a single-player MMO experience, and while that sounds a little contradictory there have been a lot of games released since WoW's inception that fit that description. On paper an idea like a group finder is a great concept but in reality and from my experience playing MMOs, people join up only for the thing they queued for. In practice, people almost always choose the easier, automated system of doing things, which is why I think it'd be best (and way more conducive to social interaction) to remove it.
>>317832 Every class not being able to do every role effectively isn't really a tax when almost every hybrid is hands down the most overpowered shit in the game. Paladin is completely fucking broken in both PvE and PvP while being brain dead easy to play. The "tax" is that you can't tank or DPS, but the trade off is being a PvP god and literally unfucking stoppable if you have a warrior with you. Shaman is technically more broken but requires a lot more skill to play. Druid is also a retarded broken PvP class. These classes are only "taxed" in the sense that they aren't perfect at every role in the game, which the other classes aren't either since they aren't hybrids with access to every role in the game. Most classes have useless specs or specs that only have niche use cases, people just get butthurt about hybrid classes because instead of it being a throwaway PvP spec or shitty useless DPS spec it's a healing or tanking spec. The funny thing about vanilla WoW's class balance is that it's probably the only expansion where you bring every class to the raid so consistently, but that's mostly because of the raid size. Meanwhile the very next expansion warriors and rogues become completely useless and your entire roster is shaman, lock, and hunter. In vanilla at least you actually need a handful of each class, in TBC you can outright completely ignore the existence of some of them. Even paladins you can just stick outside the raid to buff people then they're useless to bring inside. People praise TBC as a more balanced version of the game but it's the complete opposite if you know what a good roster looks like and how to abuse the game. If people think vanilla has hardcore tryhard autism just wait until they literally just don't get invited to the raid at all ever for being a melee.
>>318222 My outlook is "am i holding the team back" thats the worst feeling. >especially considered a joke Yes my pain was immeasurable in those days.
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>>314336 >smirk
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>>318056 While >>318143 had plenty of good points though depending on setting and if you had to purchase the game already I would concede some cosmetic shit would beat other possibly micro transactions if you needed to make money I also add that the crafting in general needs a redesign. I don't know why, but Wurm scratched some autism itch I barely knew I had and now I want more. I want something different that isn't click UI, click craft. Crafting should be quality not quantity related, and while I know that you would never see it in the current year+x, Wurm letting you rename things made it all the better. While the closest I've seen to what I'm talking about is Camelot Unchained, I haven't touched the crafting system and the game isn't finished so I have no room to say whether or not it is any good. I can only hope they stick with their original goal and don't swap it out for something way more boring because it's easier.
>>318855 Puzzle Pirates was a game that did something unique. Pretty much every piece of equipment, weapons, clothing, even some crafting materials were made by a player from raw materials. The actual crafting was done via different puzzle minigames and the quality of the output was based on their performance. You couldn't actually craft anything without some rich asshole's shop or equipment though, so I wouldn't say it worked well but that's obviously a more complicated issue. >I would concede some cosmetic shit would beat other possibly micro transactions if you needed to make money I would too but in practice that that shit always goes downhill and ruins the game's look. Has there ever been a game that adopted cosmetic purchases and still kept them modest or in line with its design?
When's the new WoW expansion with the raid where you have to avoid getting gangbanged by futa night elves?
>>319014 >He doesn't know Its like you've never met the hordes of erper in wow
>>319014 >have to avoid do you HAVE to avoid it? there's a fail state where it happens right? Not that I'm gonna sandbag or anything.
>>319007 >Has there ever been a game that adopted cosmetic purchases and still kept them modest or in line with its design? I don't think so, although I don't think it would require much more effort than usual. Hell I think dyes micros are scummy, but it would at least be a step before going downhill like you said. I actually loved the Low Rider in Maplestory, but that game kind of got away with more modern cosmetic shit Also I never got too far into Puzzle Pirates sadly, but beyond the being forced to use some other asshole's shop (which I think wouldn't be a bad feature to have if it wasn't a necessity) having minigames for crafting is a great idea, at least when everything else in a minigame
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The SMT Imagine clan unlocked its emblem recently, but Bats is nowhere to be found. And should just give Casval leadership.
>>319031 >I'm sorry, you're being kicked from the guild. This is the twelfth weekend in a row where you intentionally failed the raid just because you love elf cock so much.
>>319508 >Casval Is that a Red comet reference
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>>319670 Maybe
>>320054 he's Hee-ho you're Hee-ho I'M HEE-HO! are there any other Hee-ho's i should know about?! demonee-ho: "HEE HO"
>>319508 >>320054 >unlocked its emblem How? I thought there was only one person still playing. Is it just you?
>>320148 There were a couple others yes but the clan levels up slowly even with just one active player, more players just makes it faster.
>>320054 >>320143 Frost Ace has come to Hee-ho at you
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>>319508 Bats here, I know my absence has been sudden but i'll pass you the leadership since I've stopped playing.
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>>324373 A shame everyone stopped playing really, or moved to the other server, was fun while it lasted.
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I play GW2 about 10-20 hours a week. Too much or too little? What do you MMOfags think? I'm full AoE debuff/curse asshole.
>>324493 I'll get back on it and play it seriously again eventually, I just haven't been in the mood for it. I've trying to get some games out of my backlog completed. The SMT: Imagine thread isn't on the catalog anymore so you can make a new one if you want and see if you can get some new anons to join. Maybe even some of the old clan mates will show up and play again.
>>324373 >>324493 is it fully translated yet?
>>324646 Not yet but they are still translating, last patch translated a lot of stuff.
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>>324493 >tfw still playing ReImagine >tfw grinding my ass off in dungeons so I can draw all the cards from the new Fortune Card decks for a shitload of Epitaphs and Secret Room entry programs Feels good man.

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