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What Happened to TF2? Anonymous 01/04/2022 (Tue) 05:57:23 Id: 1107ba No. 505674
I'm willing to bet at least a quarter of you at the very least have heard about TF2 being essentially near-abandoned by Valve in the past few years, slowing down after December of 2016 and the last major addition of new content occurring in October of 2017. Since then, the only new content that's been added has been exclusively (Rather shit) cosmetic updates in the Summer, a very slim addition of content with a handful of new maps and some more (Pretty shit) cosmetics for Halloween during October, and some new (Extremely shit) cosmetics and like 3 maps for the Christmas season. I've even noticed that actual documentation of updates has been getting less ceremonious; Valve didn't make a cookie-cutter image for the Halloween event this year, which is further back from the seemingly high-effort images used for Halloween updates on the official Wiki (picrel), and this year's Christmas patch notes have been extremely unceremonious compared to last years'. Does anyone have a lick of an idea why this happened?
Everyone that used to work on tf2 doesn't work on tf2 any more. That's basically it.
>>505678 And that's it? Honestly, I couldn't buy that; TF2 is too much of a potential moneymaker on Valve's end that it seems ridiculous that Valve would refuse to try to benefit from it.
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>>505691 Given the dumbass flat corporate structure that lets anyone in valve work on anything they want without any real restrictions. Most developers don't want to work on a decade and a half old game that's kept together with the spaghetti code equivalent of spit and duct tape when you could work on bleeding edge stuff like VR or the steam deck. One certainly looks way better than the other on a CV. Plus I bet most people who have been hired by valve over the past few years probably don't have any special. Ultimately what's happened to TF2 is the same thing that's happened to every legacy valve project. Employees work on it, they lose interest, 2 or 3 employees have to maintain it out of a feeling of obligation and it dies an unceremonious death. See artifact, the vive, underlords, the steam controller, the steam link, steam machines, or the countless cancelled games like L4D3, the aperture version of portal, stars of blood, the half life sequels and so on. Valve makes too much passive income from steam for them to care about optimizing profits from any individual project. While this does let them burn money on things like supporting linux or experimental ventures like the steam controller. It also means there's no one cracking the whip and forcing employees to give games like TF2 the support it needs to actually thrive if no one individually wants them to.
>>505704 I meant to say "Plus I bet most people who have been hired by valve over the past few years probably don't have any special attachment to TF2 as it's such an old project and isn't really considered "cool" by most normalfags unlike CSGO or DOTA"
Probably already answered your question, OP, but it's also pretty common to stop putting time and effort into games when they stop making money. Remember back when games maybe got a patch if something was so broken that the publisher was afraid nobody would buy it once the reviews hit the streets? Devs (publishers, too, since they're involved in business decisions in a lot of cases when they aren't the same entity) aren't compelled to keep committing time and energy to a game because they're not invested in it for the same reasons that players are. TF2 was an unusually good run. Responsibility for hosting dedicated servers and for new content generation is being transitioned from the player base to the developers and publishers because they want to keep a firm hand on what people want to play. That's going to hurt the longevity of future multiplayer games.
>>505726 Remember when games were just released finished and if a developer released a buggy mess they got rightly criticized and nobody bought or respected their game? Remember when instead of trying to patch together a better game they just released good and finished games and then got to work on another game that was actually intended to be good and finished?
>>505727 I remember an era before players expected games to be perpetually updated (and supported, for that matter). The "release it broken and zero day patch it" mantra is pretty modern along with the patreon model of selling an alpha that you may or may not get done--at least for commercial games.
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Anons will tell you why TF2 died in Valve dev terms much better than I could, but I'll tell you how it died for me personally. TF2 began its slow decline with the Meat Your Match update. It killed off community pub servers for several years, and the matchmaking itself felt too restrictive with no graphics mods allowed, disabled sprays (before the nigger who cried wolf on twitter caused someone at Valve to panic and further restrict them), and limited and/or tedious options for playing with friends. It made the previously cool and niche-feeling game moreso feel like a corporate cash grab game meant to die an early death before the next two E3's. When a bunch of triple hyperniggerfaggot scriptkiddies found out about a few exploits in the anti-cheat and TF2's version of Source and started flooding TF2's casual servers, it briefly helped the community servers but overall just accelerated TF2's downfall. Valve does nothing due to the "work on whatever you want" attitude of Valve as mentioned by other anons above, you know the rest if you haven't been living under a rock. Valve's disinterest in TF2 and the script kiddies being the fags they are both made the game pretty miserable for me. "It is better to have loved and to have lost, than to have never loved at all." -some pretentious faggot
tl;dr: valve has adapted the hi-rez release model. Valve has made many games in the past that have been completely forgotten to tiime. Tf2 just got old enough to join them at the drinking table.
>>505785 Not sure what to say to you, I guess you are correct. Many games like CS 1.6 and DoD had support dropped but you STILL see players on dedicated servers for these games to this day. I don't want that to be the case, though. TF2 still has many years in it, the matchmaking and bot problem just needs to be solved.
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Where can TF2 to even go? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is expanding MVM, delivering the heavy update, and unfucking matchmaking. Most of that is just busy work compared to working on a completely new game.
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>>505823 Who cares? I luke that song!
>>505823 I want that little guy as a buddy
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>>505770 Me being the piece of shit nigger that I am, I was really just waiting for that answer. I would've typed it myself if post IDs didn't exist on this board. (Obv. would've saged the post, I'm not *that* much of a nigger.) But yeah, I concur that Meet Your Match (Meat Your Match refers to the Heavy Vs. Pyro shit that decided which class is updated.) had began to ruin TF2, even if I'm a hypernewfag who began playing after the update. It's easy to see how splitting "Casual" and "Community" servers into two has fucked up the game, you already described the fuckery that Casual is in it of itself, but the less obvious factor is how it ruined community servers. It's what I call the "Global Offensive" effect. When I play CS1.6, there's a whole cornucopia of nearly-to-entirely vanilla servers populated with players. When I play CSS, there's nothing but servers that are focused on a specific niche. The reason? Because CS:GO basically took over the need for vanilla servers in CSS. It was just more convenient to cue up for CS:GO's matchmaking, as opposed to finding a server in CSS. Ergo, Meet Your Match fucked up TF2 by ruining a good half of the servers you could go to in order to find a game that adheres to the game that Valve intended you to play. In short: Fuck "the people", Fascism is the only answer or some shit.
>>505823 I mean they could start by bug fixing the game. If you want something big and fancy try porting the game to source 2.
>Valve >giving a fuck Pick one.
>>505770 Meet your Match actually saved TF2. I can actually play whatever map I want and not be locked into the same shitty 24/7 dustbowl/2fort servers or the trade/shitty custom gamemode servers that every other game in existence suffers from. TF2 had this problem too for a bit until Valve saved us. Get fucked.
>>505770 Matchmaking certainly killed the game for good for me but TF2 was getting consistently worse since going free to play. >>505906 I hate everything about csgo. Wish someone just remade 1.6 to UE5.
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>>507050 I may be a newfag but I still know about the server score system quickplay had >>507064 >ue5 >needing graphix Sorry but I'm keeping the only game I can get 300 fps on.
>>507050 >actually saved TF2 <t. retard that hasn't played the game in 5 years
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TF2 was never good
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>>507050 I'm not against matchmaking as other anons are, but bad matchmaking is worse than no matchmaking and TF2's matchmaking system is a fucking abomination.
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>>508222 Hence the importance of dedicated servers for specific niches
>>508217 Your cartoony casualized Quake was never good and I say this as someone who bought it ag launch and played it before all the F2P rubes such as yourself attached themselves to the game like children to Fortnite. Fucking deal with it
>>508222 Every single matchmaker is an abomination Dedicated servers or bust Filters exist for a reason
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>>508232 I have never met anybody who liked the Meet Your Match update, there are semi-popular posts about how bad it was and how much it damaged TF2, yet it remains. What was "wrong" with the previous system? Nobody complained about it.
>>508232 >>508246 I want dedicated servers to exist for a multitude of reasons, but matchmaking even in TF2 offers unique benefits that dedicated servers don't. In TF2 matchmaking I am free to have banter with random retards in demand. In TF2 dedicated servers they're filled with cliques that ban you for calling them niggers or faggots >b-but back in 2012 I could do that on my "niche" server Cool, today you can't on the majority of servers. Matchmaking provides anonymity and fluidity to interactions. I suppose you could argue that's a bad thing but I've never personally cared about playing with the same people and forming some retarded internet community around a shitty class based arena shooter. I just want to frag and talk shit. The arguments against good matchmaking systems just sound so fucking lame whenever I try to contend with them. It's always the kind of bizarre appeals to things that anons seem like in any other context would laugh off as normalfag shit.
>>508277 > In TF2 matchmaking I am free to have banter with random retards in demand Wrong, because you can get kicked for being too mean in matchmaking games, also only your own team can hear you over the mic, allchat is disabled. >filled with cliques that ban you for calling them niggers or faggots See above, I got kicked tons of times due to the vote kick option EVEN IF I was at the top of the scoreboard and carrying the team. >Cool, today you can't on the majority of servers You used to be able to do that with impunity on Valve servers before MyM since that had no admins or mods and the kick feature wasn't a thing yet. >I just want to frag and talk shit. You could do that on most pub servers, skial was pretty conservative with their tolerance of trash talk and shit. 3/10 Apply yourself.
>>508311 >Wrong, because you can get kicked for being too mean in matchmaking games Sure but the point I'm making is frequency and severity. Getting kicked from a matchmaking lobby is not as severe as getting banned from a dedicated server that runs the maps you like. And it's also less likely to occur because there isn't an established clique of faggots ready to boot out the outsider invading on their space. >allchat is disabled. That is a criticism of how TF2's matchmaking is implemented, not matchmaking as a concept. I've already conceded that TF2's matchmaking is an abomination. You should be able to vote to toggle on all chat. >See above, I got kicked tons of times due to the vote kick option EVEN IF I was at the top of the scoreboard and carrying the team. Like I said, in my experience the severity and frequency is not comparable between dedicated servers and matchmaking matches. >You used to be able to do that with impunity on Valve servers before MyM since that had no admins or mods and the kick feature wasn't a thing yet. If Valve's own servers are the only ones you can get away with doing it then why are you even taking issue with the matchmaking system? If you're opting to join Valve servers because you can have banter free from fear of banning then the matchmaking system is essentially just a more convenient interface for joining those servers. In fact that is actually exactly what the TF2 matchmaking system is outside of competitive, just a big front-end for the server browser. >skial lol
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>>508327 >severity and frequency Just, like, join another server. You're downplaying how many options a player had back then in regards to servers. If you're banned from one you have more, and banning really wasnt common even if you were an avid shit talker. >If Valve's own servers are the only ones you can get away with doing it then why are you even taking issue with the matchmaking system? They're not the only ones, don't put words in my mouth. And Valve's dedicated servers had maps on regular rotations and didn't force you to go through that terrible map vote after every damn round. They were as vanilla as it gets. Plus you didn't have every single person who wanted to play TF2 crammed into these official valve servers, you'd mainly just have pubstompers and people who WANTED a semi-competitive experience, unlike the current matchmaking system where you get all types. The map voting thing at the end is the biggest violation if you ask me, considering how it fucks with the flow of gameplay and usually 90% of the server leaves to find a new match because it's that much quicker to do so than wait for the map vote to finish. >lol Pic related.
Quickplay > community servers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matchmaking My opinion > your opinion
A combination of Tyler Mcnigger fucking the game over by helping to leak the source code, and Valve's passion being more on hardware and managing the store rather than video game development.
>>509955 Explain how access to the source code impacted the game in any way.
>>509955 Source code was already available way before that idiot did anything though.
>>509955 >he bought the source leak meme (you) are even more retarded then the hackers if they managed to spook you into thinking that meant anything at all. If anything sourcecode being leaked has both shown valve's imcopetence and allowed for more qualified programmers to work on it. Although literally every community dev that looked at the code ended up saying " fuck this" and went to completely rework the codebase on source 2
>start playing on dedicated servers to avoid bots recently >literally every single match is a complete roll al the sudden >not a single match of 50 isn't a roll, literally not one >scrambling does nothing, even after a scramble every single round is a complete stomp I'm starting to think TF2 is actually just a fucking horribly designed game. Playing random casual and matchmaking servers for so long has given me a much different perspective on the game over the years and switching back to dedicated servers filled with autistic sweaty teenager who have sunk 5000 hours into the game has shown me that the game actually just really fucking sucks. The design and balance just doesn't scale properly proportional to the skill of the players. The better you are the game the less fun it becomes. Winning isn't fun, losing isn't fun. TF2 is actually just a party game, and a really shitty party game.
>>512905 git gud
>>508265 >What was "wrong" with the previous system? Nobody complained about it. Wasn't it that competitive faggots (the likes who call for shit like Buffalo Steak to be banned because it makes heavy move faster in 6cp) wanted it?
>>512905 Do you think it's the fact there are just so many different items and weapons unlockable to the average player? At launch everything was balanced in response to something else, after that things that were added had to be built around them. Having so many different items at a point was such a problem they often went through completely different functions from their initial purpose. There is no way whatsoever every weapon in the game has (at a point) actually been looked over and changed compared to the other items currently implemented. In response to some youtube or streaming fags, sure. But I don't think TF2 has actually had a serious "sit down" to see what's worked and what hasn't over the past decade+ by anyone seriously committed to making it fun or rewarding and I don't think it ever will. It's too big and too bloated for an FPS and that's solely from a basic game design perspective without including the sullied art design or bots or competitive etc. etc...
>>512972 Not really. Engineer without his nu-items is functionally useless in modern TF2 because everyone knows how to shit on his nest in seconds. Not that I like all the random weapon variety, but TF2 before the added items had just as many problems with balance as it scales with player skill. Spy is another example of a class that is actually just straight up fucking useless on dedicated servers where the majority of people know how to play the game. Like there's unironically zero application of the class, it's just useless. I'd say he was almost borderline viable before the dead ringer nerf but even then not really. The game wasn't designed around expecting people to be good at it and it's really starting to show.
>>512978 Just equip the scortch shot. You'll win every game. The issue isn't tf2 it's the fact that if your thinking exclusivly in the mindset of achieving exclusivily the objective to win the round. Your aren't going to have any fun. Ignoring the objective is hillariously the best way to enjoy the game. when round end comes just leave the mindset of tryharding and focus on whatever objective you wish to achieve in the given match instead. I don't ever play to win in tf2, cause it's boring and will quickly put you into a routine of grief. Either you'll get anoyed with your team or you'll curse at the game/ enemy team for shit. This game is like you said. A party game. You play it just to chill out and achieve some personal goal while slightly working together on the side to achieve the main objective. But the main objective will never and shouldn't be your end goal. This is why i and i think others are against competitve shitters so much, competitive players want to focus exclusivly on the objective and every piece of balance advice they have is centered around this. often nerfing items that offend them but are mostly just joke items in a majority of pubs. >Spy is just straight up fucking useless Yes, but he's fun.
lemme post some bait content as well
>>512989 He's right though.
>>512989 >mahnority southerner detected.
>>512985 >You'll win every game. I don't care about winning. I care about winning or losing in a way that feels engaging. I already know how to win TF2. >The issue isn't tf2 it's the fact that if your thinking exclusivly in the mindset of achieving exclusivily the objective to win the round. Losing isn't the problem. I'm fair losing every single match until the end of time. The problem is when you just fucking completely shit stomp the enemy team every single round, or vice versa. In the majority of TF2 matches the best mechanic for having fun is literally disconnecting from the server to find a better match. >Yes, but he's fun. But he's not fun and completely invalidated the microsecond you reach a certain threshold of number of players in the lobby that know how to play TF2. Agreeing with me that TF2 is a meme party game and that you just need to change your perspective to enjoy it isn't very satisfying. It just makes you sound like a "fun with friends" fag who refuses to engage with the very notion of competent game design. >>512990 Oh I see you're baiting. Well I'll make the post anyways.
>>512989 >bait He's absolutely right, TF2 was not designed around or even for comp and people trying to play it like it's a comp game are retard tryhards
>>512995 >TF2 was designed poorly Yes.
>>509955 McVicker didn't fucking do anything, why do people keep spouting this? The source code leak was also a big nothingburger, all the videos about "hacks" were fake. It was years out of date, anyway. The only things that came from the code leak were mods and Team Comtress. >>512989 I fail to see how this is bait, compfaggotry has been ruining TF2 since MyM
>>512993 >But he's not fun and completely invalidated the microsecond you reach a certain threshold of number of players in the lobby that know how to play TF2. Wrong. I find playing against players who know their shit more fun with spy, because "good" players often have more visable habits that you can exploit then players who literally don't know jack shit. The only issues with spy is if your playing the ol' run up behind them and stab playstyle. yes he's completely useless and your not going to have fun. Disguise kits are broken as shit and often a hinderence more then a help. It's actually better to not use disguise kits at all when in a lobby of people who know what their doing. >bait It's not bait if it's true. >>512997 >was designed around random players goofing off and not boring spectator sports bullshit >surprised when you try to optimize shit and intentionally throw out the goof that it turns into a boring slugfest that isn't fun I don't see the issue, personally. Just seems like your shooting yourself in the foot and trying to claim the gun did it.
>>512999 He doesn't even know the arguments for the mechanics he's defending. Random bullet spread has nothing to do with balancing shotguns. Random bullet spread applies to way more than shotguns. >>513001 >I find playing against players who know their shit more fun with spy, because "good" players often have more visable habits that you can exploit then players who literally don't know jack shit. Spy becomes literally useless beyond a certain threshold of good players joining the server. You personally enjoying your class becoming useless is not an argument in favor of the design. >Disguise kits are broken as shit and often a hinderence more then a help Wow it's almost as if the class is poorly designed holy shit dude that's crazy. >It's not bait if it's true. You're filtered.
>>513004 >you're filtered LMAO >Random bullet spread applies to way more than shotguns Yes, but also no.
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>>513004 Bet your the same type of person who complains about people using gass passer in MvM
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>>513004 I didn't include his arguments in the webm, only the conclusion and anger towards compfags, hence the bait. The arguments part is really long. >>512995 >>512990 >>512999 a good bait should include a point of contention, so that both for and against people can argue. And arguments for both sides. Should I post more?
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>>512989 This isn't bait, this is spot on. Fuck compniggers.
>>513028 >liking bad game design because something something competitive What the fuck is it about TF2 that makes anons suddenly become completely retarded? Or am I actually just getting baited? Every thread there's dozens of people seemingly unironically defending "fun with friends" retard logic that wouldn't fly with any other game. Is it just Valve worship or something? Someone explain this phenomenon.
>>513030 >wouldn't fly with any other game Halo edwarto, tribes asend, sonic kart, quake, ace of spades, hearts of iron 4, stellaris, joint operations, fist full of frags, terraria.... I can name many a game that has been treated the same way as tf2 has by anons. I don't know what you mean by this. What """"other game"""""
>>513013 Concerns about gaspass in mvm I can understand a bit, but like everything else, its overblown and taken out of proportions. All it needs is a balance.
>>513050 I'll give you that the upgrade being only 500 is rather cheap and lazy (on valves part). I think it'd be better if the upgrade had a seperate explosion radious part that you'd need to level up to make it more effective aswell as a damage upgrade. Rather then how it currently works where you just slap 500 and win. What i think is anoying when you come across people who complain about the gass passer is they complain about people using it but also want to run the most optimize meta builds. Which is dumb since gass passer is one of the most optimial strategies. It doesn't significantly change how you play it doesn't ruin the rounds. it's just really good and on par with things like sniper headshots. The only issue with it as far as i see is the entry cost. I don't understand what prompts people to have a schizo fit every time they see a pyro using it. I've been in a MvM match where the majority of the players were fine with the pyro playing it, but one fucking sperg was throwing a fit that we wouldn't kick him. He complain about the pyro "stalling the match" which made no sense. Then he in a stroke of genious no mere mortal will understand then decided he'd pick pyro and exclusivly airblast sentry busters into my own buildings... Attempting to kick him resulting in him doing that retry exploit that allows you to evade vote kicks... My experience with every single person who complains about this weapon has only ever been from absolute sperges. Btw the other pyro was mvp the whole time. Added him and the rest of the server ended up leaving and recreating the lobby without the schizo.
>>513075 Was his name herald11?
>>505674 Having just finished playing a bit, I can tell you that the biggest problem is not only bots but the devs' inability to do shit about them. TF2 should have stayed a pay2play game, not a single good thing came out of making it free. >>512989 On the one hand, a game with no bullet spread and no crits would be fairer, on the other hand competitive faggots keep crying wolf at any fun and/or interesting mechanic because it breaks their precious shitty meta. Majority of pub players, or rather majority of players care very little about crits until it hits them, but even then if you're playing on a public or dedicated server: 1) Casual players tend to perform worse hence deal much less damage hence get much less chances for crits 2) If they even get a crit, chances are they're gonna miss the shot 9 out of 10 times 3) Even if you get shot by a crit, USUALLY it's not enough to be a game changer, heck occasionally it's just you being in the wrong position at the wrong time and you'd have died in two shots anyhow But yeah if they were gone I think people would still have a better experience. Not the perfect utopia compfags want though.
>>512978 You're wrong on that slightly. The game was designed around expecting people to be good, but it wasn't designed around a small coordinated group of people. TF2 thrives in large player counts. Yeah Spy is useless if there is a Pyro flaming everything all the time, but if there's 12 people per team, it's impossible for the Pyro to be everywhere at once. And if there's 3+ Pyros on your team, you have other much more serious problems. It's easier to Spy check if there are fewer people. His usefulness increases in direct proportion to the player count.
>>513033 All of those games have good core design though? Halo's faults aren't some bizarre randomized mechanic, it's that it's a floaty console shooter. I don't see people running around defending Halo's absolutely fucking abhorrent aim assist because it was "designed" to be a console shooter. People just accept that it's a shitty implementation that has no purpose on PC. And yet people will defend TF2's awful game design because it was intended to be a lulz so randumb party game. >>513204 >Yeah Spy is useless if there is a Pyro flaming everything all the time No, spy is useless when any player of any class knows how to play the game. Pyro doesn't counter spy, every class in the game counters spy. Spy would be every bit as useless if pyro was deleted from the game tomorrow.
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>>513194 Want an even more bait opinion on random bullet spread? The reasons they give for removing bullet spread on shotgun can also be used to justify removal on pistols, smgs, miniguns etc but of course, that would mean a laser accurate heavy and they don't want that. Crits again is another whole can of worms. I would even allow a compromise between both sides, that to have a simple vote call at the start of a match whether the server wants random crits enabled or disabled. But given what I'm seeing with the state of the "tf2 community", you'll have absolute monkey screeching tier shits happening where people will be calling boycotts on all servers who have random crits enabled/disabled, people leaving matches enmass when the vote fails in their favour, shit flinging on chat on "who voted f2?" refusing to heal that player, tacobot style blacklists on people who favor crits, and etc. etc.
>>513214 >that would mean a laser accurate heavy and they don't want that. Random bullet spread is already removed in comp and that is not even remotely how it works dude. The spread is just given a consistent pattern, it doesn't turn into a laser hitscan. There is no hypothetical to discuss, random crits and random bullet spread have been removed from the game for years on custom servers and comp, we already know the game functions just fine without them.
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>>513214 SATOWAKA-SAN, NO That's not how you lap-steel-gee-tar
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>>513214 Are those what one might call Nippibillies?
>>513211 Now you're just hyperbolizing. Spy is very troublesome for Engineers and Snipers. Or really anyone who is distracted momentarily. >b-but this one loadout makes Spy irrelevant Yes but then you're sacrificing other advantages just to deal with this one annoying guy who shows up unpredictably, thus making you weaker against the rest of the enemy team.
>>513264 >Now you're just hyperbolizing. Nope, not even a little bit. Spy doesn't counter sniper in the slightest, and neither does he counter engineer. Demoman and Soldier counter engineer, spy counters nothing, not even himself like Sniper. >b-but this one loadout makes Spy irrelevant The stock loadouts for both those classes are perfectly aqueduct for dealing with spy. The razorback isn't a spy counter, literally just fucking shooting him is the counter.
>>513273 >aqueduct lol adequate
>>513273 I agree that the Razorback is a shit trap option for newbies. But you're still just emphatically hyperbolizing. I don't know if you've only played with the shittiest Spies in the universe or what, but it isn't hard to not get killed by a Sniper as a Spy. If you're discovered early, most classes can take you on directly. But in that way he's kind of similar to Pyro. Pyro isn't the strongest combat class either but he's very good at keeping people distracted. If you ignore him, he will kill you, but if you don't the rest of the enemy team will kill you. Assuming the Spy/Pyro player has good timing. Both classes are pretty effective at getting in a position where the enemy team must split their attention between the bulk of your team or one guy who is really good at annoying everyone. As both a Pyro or a Spy, if you just tag along with the main pushing force of your team you're generally not effective at all and will die quickly.
>>513295 None of that matters in the context of a match with good players. I know you can perform well as Spy in a casual match filled with retards. The point is that in a setting where everyone in the lobby actually knows how the fuck to play TF2 the class instantly becomes useless. Pyro is a bad class but he has a roll and actually has some uses with airblast. The pyro doesn't instantly become unviable because the soldier is good. Forcing a soldier to switch from his broken rocket launcher to a shitty shotgun is a direct counter. The spy counters nothing when in a lobby with good players. There is no direct hard counter, he's just mildly annoying. A good spy will always, without fail, every single time perform better on literally ANY other class. There is no argument to be had about this. Anything you can do as a spy can be done better as other power classes. He is objectively bad. It doesn't matter if you win with him, it doesn't matter if you top frag with him, you would have done better if you were another power class instead.
>>513301 Random crits alone should prove to you the game wasn't designed to be 'competitive', it just slowly became so over the years. The spy is a valuable class in the 'casual' setting of random pub matches, giving players a reason to look behind themselves which slows down an enemy advance considerably.
>>513304 Correct spy is viable when everyone is really bad at the game. In the same way that handicapping yourself and only meleeing people in Halo is viable when you're only playing against your 6 year old brother. I'm of the position that that is fundamentally poor game design. You're of the position that shit game design is permissible as long as we pretend like we weren't even trying to make a good game to begin with. Aim assist on PC is fine because Halo wasn't trying to be a PC shooter. It just became a PC shooter eventually, but because it wasn't trying to be it's excusable.
>>513310 Dead wrong, even if everyone in a server is at a moderate-to-high skill level, Spy has his uses. This doesn't apply to 6v6 obviously but when you get to 12v12 and more, Spy is able to slip around a lot easier and 'blend in' so that getting backstabs and disrupting the enemy team becomes easier. This is just common sense. If you're 1v1 obviously you'd pick a class other than spy because his purpose is defunct when the enemy knows what you will be. If you're in a larger server, your individuality is obscured which is all a spy needs in order to do some damage. Not to mention how a good Spy with an ambassador can deal nice damage from afar if he's in that situation. >If your game isn't competitive then it's a bad game <TOR Two reasons why nobody should take you seriously, not to mention when you arguments are as bad as they are. If a game is fun, its serving its purposs successfully.
>>513310 You have said absolutely nothing substantial. You just keep repeating the same things over and over like a broken record. I could make the same argument for a game like Splinter Cell Chaos Theory's multiplayer, that Spies are objectively a shit team because Mercs get better guns and just need to "be good at the game," but it wouldn't stop me from looking like a retard with no qualifications on why Spies are objectively bad. Next you'll say you don't need to qualify your argument because I'm retarded.
>>513335 Server size only increases the threshold of good players needed to join to make Spy a useless class. But that threshold can still be met. >If your game isn't competitive then it's a bad game Competitive is a buzzword. We expect every game to be "competitive" or fair to some degree. Games that are explicitly unfair are not fun to play. Games are supposed to be a meritocracy. I think the most ironic thing about retards like you is how they'll simultaneously fall back on claiming that TF2 is a "party game" and therefore doesn't need to be competently designed, while also defending to their last breath that it actually is competently designed. Which also makes your image very ironic when attached to your post. >>513338 I don't know what else you want me to say. Spy is literally just a bad class. It's not good. There is no scenario in which it's good to play spy over another class. You can construct these hyper specific cases where a spy can get kills, or win games, but none of that means he's better relative to any other class. That's only a metric of how bad the players in your match are, not a metric of how functional the class itself is. There is not a single scenario, not one, where a spy does something better than another class. The only shit you retards can come up with are these vague allusions to the psychological damage of having to, god forbid, turn around once every few seconds to check your surroundings. Assuming that you're literally fucking deaf and can't hear him uncloaking from halfway across the map. You fuckers are actually retarded. I need to just stop clicking on TF2 threads on this board. For whatever reason anons get brainrot about this specific game and have the most absurd positions about it.
>>513340 >he wants every game on earth to be like Chess, 100% fair and competitive
>>513353 Who are you quoting?
>>513340 >I don't know what else you want me to say about it How about any form of criteria on what you think makes Spy so shit? This is very run of the mill sophistry I've seen from retards on imageboards over the years. You make it so that I have to pull teeth just to figure out what your position even is, while pretending that you are the skilled and educated Ubermensch along the way. All because you're a giant vagina too scared to put your cards on the table and let them speak for themselves, for fear you might not be as correct as you want to be. Some examples of the criteria you could be using: >straight DPS >mobility options >survivability >fucking style points, anything would be better than repeating "its bad and ur casual" ad nauseum Oh wait, we do have a criterion now. >The only shit you retards can come up with are these vague allusions to the psychological damage of having to, god forbid, turn around once every few seconds to check your surroundings. Assuming that you're literally fucking deaf and can't hear him uncloaking from halfway across the map You just admitted to nigger-tier illiteracy given my points about Splinter Cell and the Pyro, but sure let's entertain this idea. You seem to have suggested once again that you only play 6v6 because you're a Hardcore Gamer(tm) because it really isn't always easy to hear this with 11 other teammates all firing guns and screaming callouts automatically. >dumb party game No, I am not dismissing "bad game design" just because TF2 is a "casual game." I've made the argument that TF2 is a 12v12 game, specifically, and playing it in any smaller format is a shittier experience. Whether a 24 player match is casual by definition is up to you; frankly I don't really care. Some will probably disagree with me but I've been playing since TFC and I'm willing to stick to my guns that TF games do not scale downward very well. Quite the contrary to my excusing the "bad game design," you are bullheadedly insisting that TF2 must be designed as a game for a smaller number of people and complaining that it isn't. Just go play Overwatch or whatever faggot 5v5 game is the trend nowadays. There's a million of them out there and that's obviously the format you want to play so very badly.
>>513340 Look mate, we get it: you get your ass handed to you every time you try to play spy. That's a you problem, not a TF2 problem.
>>513374 >Quite the contrary to my excusing the "bad game design," you are bullheadedly insisting that TF2 must be designed as a game for a smaller number of people and complaining that it isn't Literally only you are talking about 6v6. Notice how I mentioned 6v6 not once? Go back and read my posts, not a single fucking one says anything about 6v6. I haven't played 6v6 once in my entire life. I haven't queued for competitive TF2 once in my entire life. I don't care about competitive TF2, enough strawmen faggot. >How about any form of criteria on what you think makes Spy so shit? I have done so multiple times. Removing a sentry nest? Demo and soldier are better and faster at it. Dealing with a medic building uber on a heavy? Sniper is better at it. You're accusing me of having no concrete criteria for what makes spy bad when in reality you have no concrete criteria for what makes him good. Spy is fun, spy is unique, spy is interesting, and spy becomes completely fucking useless when enough people that know how to play the game join the server. My original point wasn't that TF2 isn't fun, or that spy isn't fun. It was that the game was not designed around people being really good at it. Sniper is a good example of this in the opposite direction.
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Gentlemen, the bait was successful. Now they're scattered and confused. Excellent work.
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>redownload game >Game after game it's filled with bots in pubs >Banned for calling admins all sorts of shit in alot of servers in "cumminity" across the board Valve is a bunch of limp-wristed kikes.
Why hasn't this thread been combined with the other thread? >>505674 What is actually sad about TF2's current state is how preventable it is. Valve could be pay a couple of fags 5k/month from their infinite money-pile to either fix VAC or have them try to keep watch over cheaters/hunt down the shitters running bots. The thing makes decent money so I don't understand how they can't justify getting some faggot to keep it running smoothly besides adding hats. They can't be intentionally leaving it to die because they did do some basic shit to cull the bot hordes. I still mourn the loss of the comic that hasn't had anything done with it.
>>515995 The more you try and rationalize Valve decisions the more you'll just realize that they can't be rationalized. Valve is just really really really fucking retarded. From leaving remote access vulnerabilities in source games for 2+ years to shit like artifact there's a mountain of memory holed shit that Valve has done that completely fucking dwarfs the incompetence of companies that are openly hated by people. Valve just has retard strength and no matter what the fuck they do people will eat their shit. They're an anomaly.
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>>516004 It's just surreal to me. I know the real explanation is that they're lazy and their work plan is them working on the new shiny thing until they're bored and move on to the next thing with no one cracking the whip. I'd say on Valve's end Dota 2 survived on Icefrog's autism and Internationals. At this point Source 2 will only come out after it becomes obsolete because they can't be assed to work now that Steam just removed all stakes over the years. I just miss the days when Saxxy's were a thing and populated community servers of bullshit weird maps. I'm just venting.

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